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Subbies 2023!

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
I'd be lying if I said they're my favourite club but I do think they are a red hot chance Barbour & Burke.
Surely they win Burke - On an absolute streak since we knocked them off in Round 1. Clinical without ever destroying a team apart from maybe one or two throughout the season.
Drummoyne have strike though so you wouldnt want them within 1 try with 10 minutes to go
 

TheBigArvo

Chris McKivat (8)
Division 3 Summary 2023

Beecroft 1886 points - 1st Grade (2nd), 2nd Grade (1st) Colts (3rd)
The club champions of the division will be happy to walk away with open trophy but will be ruing not coming away with at least one more. The 1st grade side looked unbeatable in the first half of the seasons before Europe season and injuries shook that image. They were up their all season and only lost the GF after the bell to the only side in the comp that could rival them in Oysters. Having a 2nd grade win the division who is a very nice achievement when your 1st grade makes the grand final and shows the depth the club is starting to produce. The colts had some very classy backs and and solid pack and were strong throughout the year. What is promising for Beecroft is their colts have been playing in the finals series for at least 5 years and this has started flowing through to the grades. A club which is on the rise and should be competitive although probably not dominant in div 2.

Knox 1412 - 1st Grade (4th), 2nd grade (5th), Colts (2nd)
Will be happy to finish 2nd as club champions but disappointed they couldn't do more then that. Their 1st grade started slow but were really building nicely before a upset 1st round loss in the quarter finals. Their 2nd grade should have been playing finals football but late end of seasons forfeits changed that and is a worrying sign for the club that they are struggling to maintain players. Similar to last year their colts are their strong points and will be heart broken they couldn't convert their minor premiership into a gf win, if they can convert their colts into grade players then it will be a bright future, but the colts seem very separate to the rest of the club and their was not a lot of backing up. Hopefully the colts stay and hopefully the more positive results should keep players around for another crack at whatever div 3 looks like.

Sydney harbour 1210- 1st grade (1st), Eastern Suburbs 5ths 2nd grade (2nd), Gordon Colts (5th) (no idea how cc points worked with them)
They posses a dominant 1st grade team, that can attack like no other and they put cricket scores on other clubs, the only problem is that is the extent of Sydney oysters. Their 2nd grade side is easts 5ths and their colts is Gordon. They are putting subbies in a tricky spot can you promote a a one club team and then try and fill the other grades and colts which is hard or do you keep them in the same division and let them continue to beat everybody. Would love to see them try and put a 2nd grade club on although am cautious of this as its not very successful, otherwise Div 3 might be their celling for the time being.

Sydney Harlequins 1158 1st grade (3rd), 2nd grade (3rd), Colts (Eastern Suburbs 1st)
1st grade was strong and did well to make the semi-final however we always a class below the top 2, the same can be said about 2nd grade with both sides suffering decisive losses in the preliminary final. Harlequins however did have their moments including beating Beecroft in 1st grade and were tied in 2nd grade at half time in the PF, so they were clearly have talent, if they can elevate a little bit they can win the division next year, and with Beecroft possibly gone they should push their way to the grand final in 2 grades. The player depth is their as they have numbers, would love to see them find a colts team though.

Old barker 926 1st Grade (5th), 2nd grade (4th), Colts (7th).
It was a regressive year for the BOBS, their 1st grade were respectable in 2nd div last year making the finals and this year in an easier division they failed to do so. Their 2nd grade came fourth but this achievement should be placed in the context of they were the best team to not forfeit multiple games this years, they never really looked threat. Their colts as has been the case for the past few years have struggled and since this has happened the club has only been moving backwards. In what should have been a good division for them with local rivals in the form of Knox, iggies and closely located beecroft, I thought an improvement would have been on the cards. However applause must be given to the boys from Hornsby for fulling their divisional requirements week in and week out.

Old Iggies 262 1st grade (6th), 2nd grade (6th), colts (7th)
A year to forget and the sooner the better, because if they don't there will be no team next year for this club. The seasons started so promising with wins against Knox and then just went downhill from their with the club only fielding 1st grade by the end of the year, and the 1st grade side was getting trounced week in week out, they even loss to manly savers.. Need to rebuild during the offseason, I hope someone is at the school telling them how strong this club once was and how fun subbies rugby can be, because otherwise this club may become a relic of the past.

Manly Savers -10 1st grade (7th), 2nd Grade (non existent), Manly premier Colts (4th)
Didn't have the player numbers or the quality for this division. I don't know what happened this year to them but it was not pretty. Its a tough gig to set up in the same suburb as a successful premier side, it was to tough for manly.

Summary Div 3
The division finals were great and had exciting finishes in particularly 1st grade however this papered over alot of the problems in the division. At the end of the season their were 5 competitive teams in 1st grade, 4 teams not forfeiting in 2nd grade and only 3 clubs with subbies clubs. The byes made everything worse in this division as with forfeits teams were playing only once or twice a month on several occasions. More clubs are needed for this division to be viable. If Beecroft (and myself) move only 2 of the clubs will have colts, so maybe this division should drop colts and try for a third grade.
I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)
 

Denistone_Dennis

Chris McKivat (8)
I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)
You can't have a club (Lindfield) win 90% of their games and keep them in the same division....
 

HogansHeros

Syd Malcolm (24)
I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)

Based on this year, you almost do get rid of div 3.
Harbour isnt a club, just a team... maybe they go play as a team in a div 1 club to get some competitive rugby instead of leaning on SS clubs for other teams.
Who knows what Knox will look like next season.
Iggies could barely put a team together by the end of the season.
And you would assume Beecroft will want to go up.
Leaves you with only Harlequinns and Barker as the only 2 true Div 3 clubs left.
 

The Ghost of Raelene

Mark Ella (57)
Based on this year, you almost do get rid of div 3.
Harbour isnt a club, just a team... maybe they go play as a team in a div 1 club to get some competitive rugby instead of leaning on SS clubs for other teams.
Who knows what Knox will look like next season.
Iggies could barely put a team together by the end of the season.
And you would assume Beecroft will want to go up.
Leaves you with only Harlequinns and Barker as the only 2 true Div 3 clubs left.
Sounds like Subbies rotting from the bottom up.

Are we 3-4 seasons from the same being said about div 2 and a decade away from it all being done?
 

The Wombat

Herbert Moran (7)
I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)
What about merging the top 3 divs into two:

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham, UNSW, Hills,

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, (maybe Harbour, maybe Iggies or anyone else that wants to step up.)

Those look like reasonably stable divisions.
 

oldmate11

Herbert Moran (7)
What about merging the top 3 divs into two:

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham, UNSW, Hills,

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, (maybe Harbour, maybe Iggies or anyone else that wants to step up.)

Those look like reasonably stable divisions.
Hills would get smoked lol

Harbour would have to come up to div 2 in this case, they'd smash everyone below them.
 

HogansHeros

Syd Malcolm (24)
Harbour would have to come up to div 2 in this case, they'd smash everyone below them.
and run easts 6th and 7th grade as 2nd and 3rd grade? And maybe easts or gordon 4ths colts as theirs? (If SS dont run an extra colts comp next year?)
Its just messy
 

HogansHeros

Syd Malcolm (24)
What about merging the top 3 divs into two:

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham, UNSW, Hills,

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, (maybe Harbour, maybe Iggies or anyone else that wants to step up.)

Those look like reasonably stable divisions.
Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, UNSW, Hills

2 10 club divs.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Sounds like Subbies rotting from the bottom up.

Are we 3-4 seasons from the same being said about div 2 and a decade away from it all being done?

Looking at the data shows a decline we already generally understand:

1693432561835.png
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
However there is another metric that I think gives it another facet to udnerstand where we are - number of teams per club.

You can register as many players as you like. But you're only going to stick your hand up for the number of teams for which you have coaches, managers, volunteers, facilities, and enough reliable bodies to play each week. And also what you can afford!

In 6 divisions of 8-10 clubs, you want to see an average of 3.5 teams per club, with 6 teams at the top end down to 1 at the bottom. Historically that figure has often been higher as Radford Cup and Halligan Cup push it upward.

Now that we're at 5 divisions with reduced grades, it is closer to 3.

1693432720129.png
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Meanwhile, Premier Rugby is seeing some clubs flourish, with 4-5 Grades + 4-5 Colts teams (e.g. Easts), and others not meeting their requirements e.g. Two Blues with no Fourth Grade or Third Colts.

Can Subbies fix this by itself? No.

We need a whole-of-system approach, and I'd hope this move for pro rugby to rationalise operations with RA has a flow-on effect for us.

It would also be nice if SRU decided what it wanted to be, and structured itself accordingly. I still believe every Subbies club should have a relationship with a Premier Club in order to have better dialogue and movement or development of players, coaches, and admin staff between the two.
 

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
There isn't room unless someone from div 2 wants to come down.
I would like to think Subbies wouldnt stop a team that can improve the standard of the higher divisions just due to numbers in that Division. Div 2 had 7 teams this year? Surely 8 or 10 wouldnt be a problem if players are getting consistent games week in week out.
Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, UNSW, Hills

2 10 club divs.
This makes the most sense to me.
 

TheBigArvo

Chris McKivat (8)
Meanwhile, Premier Rugby is seeing some clubs flourish, with 4-5 Grades + 4-5 Colts teams (e.g. Easts), and others not meeting their requirements e.g. Two Blues with no Fourth Grade or Third Colts.

Can Subbies fix this by itself? No.

We need a whole-of-system approach, and I'd hope this move for pro rugby to rationalise operations with Rugby Australia has a flow-on effect for us.

It would also be nice if SRU decided what it wanted to be, and structured itself accordingly. I still believe every Subbies club should have a relationship with a Premier Club in order to have better dialogue and movement or development of players, coaches, and admin staff between the two.
I’m intrigued to know why Subbies clubs are seeing a drop off in numbers as players don’t want to commit post covid. Yet numbers are Shute Shield clubs seem to be increasing?

Wonder if it comes down to structure? Money? Would of thought guys would of preferred the laid back nature of Subbies as it’s less commitment with training and games.

Your right as long as SRU allows clubs to warehouse colts and players in extra sides without a proper competition your going to see the drop off in clubs around them. Rather than these Shute clubs running an extra side it would be good to improve the relationship these clubs have with there local Sides.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Surely 8 or 10 wouldnt be a problem

10 is definitely a problem.

You're never going to get a decent club championship unless it is a full home and away season.

That means 8 clubs max, 14 rounds, max.

Nobody wants 18 rounds. Nobody.

There are 9 clubs in Div 1
There are 7 in Div 2

Mapping 16 there is easy. Two divisions of 8, with just the details to be worked out.

There doesn't look to be a pressing candidate for promotion from Div 3. The strongest club - Beecroft - didn't play any Halligan Cup games. Do they have a third grade? Would they want to start one?
 
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Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I’m intrigued to know why Subbies clubs are seeing a drop off in numbers as players don’t want to commit post covid. Yet numbers are Shute Shield clubs seem to be increasing?

Wonder if it comes down to structure? Money? Would of thought guys would of preferred the laid back nature of Subbies as it’s less commitment with training and games.

If you're signed onto Grade 5 or Colts 4 as a bench player, you get the same thing.
 

TheBigArvo

Chris McKivat (8)
10 is definitely a problem.

You're never going to get a decent club championship unless it is a full home and away season.

That means 8 clubs max, 14 rounds, max.

Nobody wants 18 rounds. Nobody.

There are 9 clubs in Div 1
There are 7 in Div 2

Mapping 16 there is easy. Two divisions of 8, with just the details to be worked out.

There doesn't look to be a pressing candidate for promotion from Div 3. The strongest club - Beecroft - didn't play any Halligan Cup games. Do they have a third grade? Would they want to start one?
No one’s asking for 18 rounds again and Yes the 16 teams in Div 1/2 on the surface fit into a nice 8 team comps.
However the question is what do you do with the 5 teams (maybe 6) remaining in Div 3 if you go down that route.
No team in Div 4 has looked like being able to take the next step up. Plus do clubs in Div 2 want to hang around if a Lindfield (assuming they remain) are going to run over the top of everyone again.
 
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