Subbies 2023!

[Pfitzy]

Subbies doesnt have the luxury anymore of a 10 team DIV 1

Correct. Getting players to show up for 14 rounds is tough enough. 18 rounds with another wet weather weekend? Lol.

Throw in ground allocations versus cricket and you won't have enough preseason for many.

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 1: Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters, St Pats, Waverley, Blueys + 2 of Forest/Mosman/Petersham (last on the CC's goes down)

Div 2: Lindfield, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Knox, Beecroft, one of Epping/Briars joined by CC lowest Forest/Petersham/Mosman

IMHO Lindfield probably deserve to get promoted. They stay another year in 2nd Div and they might wreck the joint. It needs to be considered and I'd be surprised if they don't ask.

That means considering a drop for 2 clubs in Div 1 as I said above. Not set in stone but we must get back to 8 clubs. This year was an aberration.

While I think Mosman can probably get enough CC points to move out of 8th, I think Petersham and Forest are going to struggle:

Div 1 Club Championship​

Club	Points
Colleagues	957
Drummoyne	689
Waverley	652
Blue Mountains	609
St Patrick's	544
Hunters Hill	483
Forest - Hunters Hill (H), Waverley (A), Mosman (H), Drummoyne (A)	373
Mosman - Colleagues (A), Drummoyne (H), Forest (A), Waverley (H)	350
Petersham - St Pats (A), Colleagues (H), Hunters Hill (H), Blue Mtns (A)	344

I'm taking into account that the Kentwell table has a small gap from Mosman (6th, 21pts) to both Forest and Petersham (15 pts) in this.

NSW Suburban Rugby Union

rugbyresults.fusesport.com

 

[2 + 2]

Subbies is basically a two-tier system at this point: First Division plus a couple of clubs like Lindfield and UNSW.

They've got the financial and administrative resources to run things off the field, and the players to be competitive on it. They tend to have history, facilities, juniors, and connections that allow them to maintain a critical mass. It fluctuates but this generally won't change.

Clubs below this are generally running on the efforts of volunteers, a decreasing sponsor base, and/or in areas that have been basically deserted by rugby. Every year is basically starting from scratch with recruitment & finances, and eventually the same people get sick of being stuck with it, and the club dies.

I'm not saying that big clubs don't have difficulties; the scale and angle of the issues might be different, but they still have significant advantages that aren't relatable to the small club experience.

From afar, it looks to me like Brisbane Subbies clubs are on their way out. Their Premier scene is large and hoovers up most of the talent. Subbies clubs are pretty much single grades that play against QPR 6th Grade sides of a Friday night. That's got a shelf life.

Perhaps that's where NSW Subbies will end up; First Division Clubs still playing 4 Grades + Colts on Saturday, with a Friday night comp for 1-2 Grade clubs.

Brisbane subbies is literally non existent. In Brisbane it is completely different to how its done in Sydney. QPR is the main comp with a lot of clubs having a 7th XV and some of the bigger clubs having 5thXV colts. A number of former Subbies clubs in Caboolture and Wynnum have left the Brisbane subbies comp and moved to the Sunshine Coast competition. 1st - 4th grade is played on Saturdays along with 1st - 2nd Grade colts and all played at the one venue. The 4th grade colts competition is played on a Thursday evening and is primarily made up of 16-18 year old kids who dont go to an AIC or GPS school and as there is no u18 competition in Brisbane they play 4th grade colts. The better players of that age are still playing either 1st or 2nd grade colts in conjunction with their school commitments.

 

[21mm]

Shout out to Woody Woodsman for those predictions.

Made a very tired Ashes/Wimbledon/Tour/Rugby Championship induced Monday at work more betterer.

 

[Waterloo_Ned]

Div 3: Hawkesbury Valley, Harlequins, Barker, Iggies, Epping/briars, Renegades, Wakehurst, Northern Saints

And so on.

This sounds like a horrible division. Aren't these clubs forfeiting at the moment in 2nd Grade other than Renegades?

8x8x8 in each division may not be something that can be achieved straight away, but worked towards. 8x7x7 may be a step in the right direction for next year.

 

[Pfitzy]

8x8x8 in each division may not be something that can be achieved straight away, but worked towards. 8x7x7 may be a step in the right direction for next year.

At least we need 8x8x7 I think.

The lower Division clubs who are successful need to start pushing for 2 Grades e.g. Burraneer.

 

[Pfitzy]

Underlines represent changes - just my opinion on the best way to get back to 8x8x8:

Div 1 ( 4 + Colts ) : Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters, St Pats, Waverley, Blueys, Mosman, Lindfield = 8
Div 2 ( 3 + Colts ) : Petersham, Forest, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Epping, Beecroft, Briars = 8
Div 3 ( 2 + Colts ) : Hawkesbury Valley, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Iggies, Penrith, Merrylands, Camden = 8
Div 4 ( 2 Grades ) : Redfield, Irish, Rockdale, Raptors, Renegades, Saints, Wakehurst, Burra = 8
Div 5 ( 2 Grades ) : Chatswood, Mac Uni, Oatley, Georges River, Kings, Canterbury, Sea Lice = 7
Div 6 ( 1 Grade ) : Convicts, Blacktown, Balmain, Maccabi, Dukes, Terrey Hills, Savers = 7

Sydney Harbour's JV with Easts 5s is unsustainable in practical terms for Subbies. Not really sure how that is going to be addressed.

And of course throw in Bingham Cup and Maccabiah Games and you might be stuffed anyway.

 

[The ultimate ressie]

Is Penrith looking at coming into subbies next year or just speculation at this point?

 

[Pfitzy]

Is Penrith looking at coming into subbies next year or just speculation at this point?

It might be an option for them. Go check out the scores they're copping in the Canberra comp.

I'm just spitballing options when I talk about them and Camden

 

[Pfitzy]

 

[Heure]

Subbies doesnt have the luxury anymore of a 10 team DIV 1

Div 1: Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters, St Pats, Waverley, Blueys + 2 of Forest/Mosman/Petersham (last on the CC's goes down)

Div 2: Lindfield, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Knox, Beecroft, one of Epping/Briars joined by CC lowest Forest/Petersham/Mosman

Div 3: Hawkesbury Valley, Harlequins, Barker, Iggies, Epping/briars, Renegades, Wakehurst, Northern Saints

And so on.

it’s a good start heavyd but you need to be a bit more ruthless.

here’s the go;

div1
colleagues waverley Mosman hunters blue mountains drummoyne

the current standard of div2 is diabolical so in order to bring some competitiveness to this level;

div2
Petersham st pats Forest lindfield - then 2 from Newport unsw hills?

div3 and 4 is a bit of a rabble. Some proper consultation with the clubs from the subbies board would be a starting point. Maybe replace the board with some sort of AI / BOT so they don’t give clubs 2 weeks off and then play on an international test weekend.

food for thought.

 

[Pfitzy]

Maybe replace the board with some sort of AI / BOT so they don’t give clubs 2 weeks off and then play on an international test weekend

I finally figured it out: you're an SRU shill

Only someone from Premier Rugby would post that rubbish and think it's funny.

 

[Eastcoast]

View attachment 16811

I think you need to look at the differences between both home and away games.
The Emus have been competitive for 50-60 minutes in most of their games. Have been close to both Whites and the Owls in recent games, but just seem to lack depth. This will be an issue in Subbies as well if you only have 1-2 grades and colts. Their top team would be too good for Div 2 and below, but cant play below 3rd grade, which doesnt work for 1st Div.
I think if Penrith play Subbies with the same team they have on the park at the moment, they will do some damage.

The Canberra competition is pretty strong considering how many Brumbies go back and play grade down there.

 

[Pfitzy]

I think if Penrith play Subbies with the same team they have on the park at the moment, they will do some damage.

I'm taking into account they'd have to abide by amateur rules - which obviously means they'd lose a few players.

I'm also taking into account they'd not be making a 2 hour road trip every fortnight - which probably means they gain players.

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

This sounds like a horrible division. Aren't these clubs forfeiting at the moment in 2nd Grade other than Renegades?

8x8x8 in each division may not be something that can be achieved straight away, but worked towards. 8x7x7 may be a step in the right direction for next year.

Ned, your lack of knowledge of rugby outside of Waterloo Oval and screenshotting yellow and red cards is astounding.
As a man of the Subbies people, I know that the Northern Saints/Lane Cove alliance is already flourishing and may not be there in 2023, but 2024 is already promising. Same as the Wakehurst Brothers.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Makes me wonder what other Clubs may go looking for a mate. If it can be somewhat regionally close it could work for a lot of them.

Potentially a couple less teams here or there but you create a stronger one. In regards to Lane Cove & Saints Subbies could have lost both...

 

[Pfitzy]

Makes me wonder what other Clubs may go looking for a mate. If it can be somewhat regionally close it could work for a lot of them.

Potentially a couple less teams here or there but you create a stronger one. In regards to Lane Cove & Saints Subbies could have lost both...

It becomes a question of specifics at that point: playing colours, home ground(s), player crossover etc. I know it is a bit of a punish to administer

Canteen takings can be important for a club but really shouldn't be critical income, so I don't see that as a factor. More than dilution of use will eventually mean no allocation from varying Councils etc.

The facility is lost in the event the club folds anyway, so...

The real challenge is who plays First Grade and who plays Second Grade, Third Grade etc. Another puzzle to sort out if we're combining clubs into multiple Divisions. Country Rugby manages it so it can't be that hard. Growth Mindset and all that

 

[Pfitzy]

Ned, your lack of knowledge of rugby outside of Waterloo Oval and screenshotting yellow and red cards is astounding.
As a man of the Subbies people, I know that the Northern Saints/Lane Cove alliance is already flourishing and may not be there in 2023, but 2024 is already promising. Same as the Wakehurst Brothers.

Wakehurst definitely want to grow, and were disappointed to forfeit 2nd Grade - pumped us in Firsts after a bunch of guys from our starting lineup didn't make it tho. Not a bad team at all.

Discussing the situation with a senior member of the Brothers Club after the game was enlightening; he was fairly insistent that their best recent season was when the competition was based on regional lines and guys didn't have to travel too far.

Given our experience on the day, I'd tend to agree - travel sometimes sucks and some Divisions barely have to leave their suburb

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

It becomes a question of specifics at that point: playing colours, home ground(s), player crossover etc. I know it is a bit of a punish to administer

Canteen takings can be important for a club but really shouldn't be critical income, so I don't see that as a factor. More than dilution of use will eventually mean no allocation from varying Councils etc.

The facility is lost in the event the club folds anyway, so...

The real challenge is who plays First Grade and who plays Second Grade, Third Grade etc. Another puzzle to sort out if we're combining clubs into multiple Divisions. Country Rugby manages it so it can't be that hard. Growth Mindset and all that

Yeah sounds like a shit fight.

I'm talking the idea of a merger between clubs at a certain point. purely spit balling here so I'm not trying to start a yelling event but imagine if Old Ignatians and Kings Old Boys got together through the guise of a GPS old boys... May encourage other players to join like a bloke who may have gone to Shore but didn't want to rock up to Iggies.

I just think numbers are going to keep slowly going down as participation slows due to numerous factors but one of the biggest is people don't play as long as they use to.

 

[Pfitzy]

I just think numbers are going to keep slowly going down as participation slows due to numerous factors but one of the biggest is people don't play as long as they use to.

Or as often. We've got an Old Boys day this week and a bunch of ex-players coming for Halligan Cup Third Grade. Now all the Second Grade guys think that will be an easier gig.