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Subbies 2023!

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
Always be an uneven comp tho - not ever getting back to 18 rounds for a full home & away
Then lets go to 12 teams. Bring up Lindfield UNSW and Newport/Hills.

Play everyone once and then a 6 team finals series. Makes the season a decent length without having drop offs or long breaks.

Bring something similar for Div 2/3 with a combined competition with some Halligans games to fill in for the forfeirts.

Just a thought
 

Denistone_Dennis

Chris McKivat (8)
Then lets go to 12 teams. Bring up Lindfield UNSW and Newport/Hills.

Play everyone once and then a 6 team finals series. Makes the season a decent length without having drop offs or long breaks.

Bring something similar for Div 2/3 with a combined competition with some Halligans games to fill in for the forfeirts.

Just a thought
Sending teams to Div 1 who have no business being there solves nothing, apart from destroying them.

The obvious solution is to bring Div 1 back to 8 teams, and actually raise the standard of Div 2 by having more good clubs there.
 
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BundyBear

Peter Burge (5)
The colts side at SPRC would be far too strong in Division 2 if we were asked to move down. There would be cricket scores against some of the teams I have seen. The side is undefeated in Division 1 and we would expect 20+ of the team to be back next year, as they are all graduates of St Patrick's Strathfield in 21 & 22. That is before we even look at graduates of 23.

It asks you to reconsider the whole face of the competition, and whether the colts program should be based on strength of your colts as opposed to the division your grade sides put you in.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
It asks you to reconsider the whole face of the competition, and whether the colts program should be based on strength of your colts as opposed to the division your grade sides put you in.

There are a few clubs whose Colts are up and down, and might be thinking the same thing.

Would be hard to have them playing away from the rest of the club, so the compromise needs to be well thought out.
 

SticksXI

Frank Row (1)
There are a few clubs whose Colts are up and down, and might be thinking the same thing.

Would be hard to have them playing away from the rest of the club, so the compromise needs to be well thought out.
Play them on a Friday night league? Not sure the logistics of that though and you could only have max 2 games a night, need people to volunteer etc
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Play them on a Friday night league? Not sure the logistics of that though and you could only have max 2 games a night, need people to volunteer etc

Certainly worked for finals. I like the idea of being flexible with times.

Only consideration after that is a ground with appropriate lighting for play and broadcast. Not everyone has that.
 

Heavyd

Nev Cottrell (35)
70-7, 78-15, 55-12, 92-10, 43-5, 73-10, 54-13, 71-5, 65-5. These are Shute shield colts results from yesterday across all 3 colts grades. You don’t see these blowouts in Subbies colts.
 
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footy_footy

Chris McKivat (8)
Colleagues appear to have 1 hand on the Div 1 Club Championship with a big day of results v Mosman.

More intriguing is the bottom end of the table. With ongoing uncertainty about Division structure and promotion/relegation in 2024, I think the bottom half of Division 1 will be doing all in their power to avoid the bottom 2 positions. My personal opinion is the 8th and 9th should be relegated as a non-negotiable to allow Lindfield up and bring back the conventional 8 team comp (I'm sick of byes and wet weather weekends!)

Opinion for another time but Subbies have really opened a Pandora's box by not relegating Drummoyne at the end of 2022 - it leaves the door ajar for clubs to have a sook at the end of the year if they finish last. They can mount a case to stay using Drummoyne as a precedent.

Mosman sit 9th at the moment (this is a surprise to me). With a few Colts forfeits mid year, they certainly haven't been at their typical best this year. They have a tough run home, hosting Drummoyne and Waverley on either side of Forest. With respect to Forest, I think that Mosman will have a big circle around that fixture to take home as many Club Championship points as possible. I think Mosman will be safe but there will need to be a bit of refresh in 2024.

Forest sit in 8th. They are away at Waverley and Drummoyne on either side of hosting Mosman. Forest's main strength appears to be Colts and whilst their lower grades have had some success in 2023 (as highlighted yesterday v Hunters Hill) but they will struggle against Waverley and Drummoyne. Forest will have their work cut out for them and the lack of results in 1s and 2s in 2023 will be their downfall. Forest are in the danger zone.

Petersham had a good day out v St Pat's but still sit in 7th. They host Colleagues in Round 12 (blue rinse imminent), then Hunters Hill and finally a road trip to Lapstone. I can't see many victories for the Shammies in the final 3 weeks and suspect they could end up 9th. Petersham too will be in the relegation zone with no genuine finals prospects.

Blue Mountains are in 6th but I think that is because of the bye more than anything else. Blueys will be fine and will be lifting a few cups on Grand Final day in 2023.

St Pat's are in 5th but with a bye in round 12 a I suspect they will slip down the ladder this coming weekend. They then host Drummoyne before a Round 14 trip to Boronia Park. St Pat's are riding the coattails of their Colts in 2023, who have been impressive. Their Burke Cup team has also chipped in and are an outside chance of finals football. With 1st Grade, 3rd Grade and 4th Grade all sitting 9th in their respective competitions, I feel they could be in the firing line if they don't pull their finger out in their last 2 games.

The only other comment I will make is that Waverley have forfetied Colts all year (save for 2 matches) and plainly don't meet the requirements of a Division 1 club. Petersham, Forest, St Pat's & Blue Mountains all haven't forfeited a game this year. I think this could be a point of contention at the business end.

Long story short, Petersham, Forest and St Pat's appear to be the clubs that could be returning to Division 2 in 2024. What do they all have in common - a misfiring Kentwell team!
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
They can mount a case to stay using Drummoyne as a precedent.

Precedent? This isn't a court of Law.

With COVID finally out of the way, it will be a case of returning to normal. A couple of options that I'd call "good" present themselves to get back to 8 clubs:

SCENARIO 1: One team gets shifted down, and while Lindfield would not be moved up in this scenario, the division would become stronger and they'd have someone to challenge them

SCENARIO 2: Two teams get moved down, Lindfield gets moved up. The standard of Div 2 rises and Lindfield get to see if they can take on the big boys.
 

footy_footy

Chris McKivat (8)
Precedent? This isn't a court of Law.

With COVID finally out of the way, it will be a case of returning to normal. A couple of options that I'd call "good" present themselves to get back to 8 clubs:

SCENARIO 1: One team gets shifted down, and while Lindfield would not be moved up in this scenario, the division would become stronger and they'd have someone to challenge them

SCENARIO 2: Two teams get moved down, Lindfield gets moved up. The standard of Div 2 rises and Lindfield get to see if they can take on the big boys.
I think there will almost certainly be some frustrated clubs at the end of the season and they will be asking for the same treatment as Drummoyne. What's to say Petersham or Forest or St Pat's or Mosman haven't had an "off year" or meet the same extenuating circumstances as Drummoyne did at the end of 2022? In fairness, Drummoyne have proven Subbies decision to be the correct one as they would be a cut above Div 2. I have seen some comments on this thread about Div 1 clubs been "entitled" in relation to their standing in the Division and I totally agree. If you aren't performing on the field then you have to cop it on the chin.

Subbies board and management can't keep everyone happy and will need to make some tough and perhaps unpopular calls to get the Divisions right in 2024.
 

The Wombat

Herbert Moran (7)
Colleagues appear to have 1 hand on the Div 1 Club Championship with a big day of results v Mosman.

More intriguing is the bottom end of the table. With ongoing uncertainty about Division structure and promotion/relegation in 2024, I think the bottom half of Division 1 will be doing all in their power to avoid the bottom 2 positions. My personal opinion is the 8th and 9th should be relegated as a non-negotiable to allow Lindfield up and bring back the conventional 8 team comp (I'm sick of byes and wet weather weekends!)

Opinion for another time but Subbies have really opened a Pandora's box by not relegating Drummoyne at the end of 2022 - it leaves the door ajar for clubs to have a sook at the end of the year if they finish last. They can mount a case to stay using Drummoyne as a precedent.

Mosman sit 9th at the moment (this is a surprise to me). With a few Colts forfeits mid year, they certainly haven't been at their typical best this year. They have a tough run home, hosting Drummoyne and Waverley on either side of Forest. With respect to Forest, I think that Mosman will have a big circle around that fixture to take home as many Club Championship points as possible. I think Mosman will be safe but there will need to be a bit of refresh in 2024.

Forest sit in 8th. They are away at Waverley and Drummoyne on either side of hosting Mosman. Forest's main strength appears to be Colts and whilst their lower grades have had some success in 2023 (as highlighted yesterday v Hunters Hill) but they will struggle against Waverley and Drummoyne. Forest will have their work cut out for them and the lack of results in 1s and 2s in 2023 will be their downfall. Forest are in the danger zone.

Petersham had a good day out v St Pat's but still sit in 7th. They host Colleagues in Round 12 (blue rinse imminent), then Hunters Hill and finally a road trip to Lapstone. I can't see many victories for the Shammies in the final 3 weeks and suspect they could end up 9th. Petersham too will be in the relegation zone with no genuine finals prospects.

Blue Mountains are in 6th but I think that is because of the bye more than anything else. Blueys will be fine and will be lifting a few cups on Grand Final day in 2023.

St Pat's are in 5th but with a bye in round 12 a I suspect they will slip down the ladder this coming weekend. They then host Drummoyne before a Round 14 trip to Boronia Park. St Pat's are riding the coattails of their Colts in 2023, who have been impressive. Their Burke Cup team has also chipped in and are an outside chance of finals football. With 1st Grade, 3rd Grade and 4th Grade all sitting 9th in their respective competitions, I feel they could be in the firing line if they don't pull their finger out in their last 2 games.

The only other comment I will make is that Waverley have forfetied Colts all year (save for 2 matches) and plainly don't meet the requirements of a Division 1 club. Petersham, Forest, St Pat's & Blue Mountains all haven't forfeited a game this year. I think this could be a point of contention at the business end.

Long story short, Petersham, Forest and St Pat's appear to be the clubs that could be returning to Division 2 in 2024. What do they all have in common - a misfiring Kentwell team!
One thing to keep in mind is that CC points only started counting from round 6. As an example, Mosman beat Petersham, St Pats and Blueys in Kentwell and then subsequently lost to them in the replays when CC points started counting.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
One thing to keep in mind is that CC points only started counting from round 6. As an example, Mosman beat Petersham, St Pats and Blueys in Kentwell and then subsequently lost to them in the replays when CC points started counting.

Tough gig if you won the home fixture in rounds 1-5. Everyone knew what the rules were but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow if you lost a couple of players to injury in the meantime.

TeamCC PointsKentwellBurkeBarbourWhiddonJudd
Petersham4967th8th6th7th8th
Forest4588th9th3rd6th5th
Mosman3986th7th8th3rd1st

Shammies (496) - Colleagues (H), Hunters (H), Blueys (A) - that's a tough run in when you're sitting 7th in Kentwell and facing 1, 2, and 3.
Forest (458) - Waverley (A), Mosman (H), Drummoyne (A) - again - not much easy looking about that when every point counts.
Mosman (398) - Drummoyne (H), Forest (A), Waverley (H) - Forest being the meat in the sandwich, the Whales will want a big day at Melrose.

Anything could happen but you'd think the defining passage of play will be Mosman at Forest - get a good win there in Kentwell and Burke, and it could be crucial to exiting the drop zone. The Colts issues at the Whales is probably a major factor. Lot of points that Forest have to keep their nose in front.
 

HogansHeros

Syd Malcolm (24)
I think there will almost certainly be some frustrated clubs at the end of the season and they will be asking for the same treatment as Drummoyne. What's to say Petersham or Forest or St Pat's or Mosman haven't had an "off year" or meet the same extenuating circumstances as Drummoyne did at the end of 2022? In fairness, Drummoyne have proven Subbies decision to be the correct one as they would be a cut above Div 2. I have seen some comments on this thread about Div 1 clubs been "entitled" in relation to their standing in the Division and I totally agree. If you aren't performing on the field then you have to cop it on the chin.

Subbies board and management can't keep everyone happy and will need to make some tough and perhaps unpopular calls to get the Divisions right in 2024.
In recent memory, HH, Forest and Blueys (I am sure im missing some, Drummoyne?) have all been in Div 2, I'm sure the board will be happy enough to relegate underperforming clubs to get back to 8 club divs. Although I have enjoyed the extra byes, with Savers forfieting 2nd grade, this year has been shambles in Div 3.
 

TheBigArvo

Chris McKivat (8)
Unpopular opinion but I am a fan of the byes and wet weather weeks in the season. In this age of low commitment from players it helps manage this if you aren’t playing week in week out. The only thing would be if you were going to shorten the comp by a month then get rid of them.

Though when you run into a bye, Wet weather week and forfeit I can see how this will Be tough on clubs.
 

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
Keep Div 1 as it is. No teams really deserve to be demoted this year given the strength of the Div 1 competition. Having a strong team like Pats, Petersham or Forest in Div 2 wont raise the standard of Div 2. It will just mean there will be a clear 2-3 teams each year like it appears this year.

Bring Lindfield up and have a strong 10 team Div 1 competition with relegation from next year.

The rest of the Divisions probably need to be worked through anyway. You have half the teams not be able to field the required for the divisions, or blow out scores in games. No one wants to keep playing if they get dusted by 60+ each week.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Having a strong team like Pats,

Kentwell 9th (2-0-8)
Burke 5th (6-0-4)
Whiddon 9th (2-1-7)
Judd 9th (1-0-9)
Barbour 1st (10-0-0)

Besides Colts doing some heavy lifting, this is does not scream "strong" in terms of the division.

Let's remember Pats and Hunters came up to solve a problem (nobody in Div 2 wanted to play them) and overall have done well, but Pats only have 2 games left to make sure they stay out of the drop zone as well.
 

TheBigArvo

Chris McKivat (8)
Keep Div 1 as it is. No teams really deserve to be demoted this year given the strength of the Div 1 competition. Having a strong team like Pats, Petersham or Forest in Div 2 wont raise the standard of Div 2. It will just mean there will be a clear 2-3 teams each year like it appears this year.

Bring Lindfield up and have a strong 10 team Div 1 competition with relegation from next year.

The rest of the Divisions probably need to be worked through anyway. You have half the teams not be able to field the required for the divisions, or blow out scores in games. No one wants to keep playing if they get dusted by 60+ each week.
What a dumb call Eastcoast are you planning on going back to 9 team comp in 2025? That’s what’s got us into this mess in the first place. It can’t all be about Div 1 at some point sides in the higher divisions and Subbies need to understand this.
Teams dropping from Div 1 isn’t about wether they will smash everyone each week it’s about ensuring we have enough teams to compete with other clubs in the next division that then saves other clubs having to be pushed up against opponents they aren’t up to playing yet.
If clubs think they are so strong then come down and win Div 2 and go straight back up. Surprisingly I’d say that’s happened very rarely when Promotion/ relegation has been enforced!
 
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