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Subbies 2023!

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Bring Lindfield up and have a strong 10 team Div 1 competition with relegation from next year.

And 12 months from now you'll be saying to keep it at 10, despite it being demonstrably unworkable.

The real problem with only counting CC points from Round X onward is around timing - you might have a great first 5 rounds to set up your season, but accumulate no CC points in doing so.

Look at Blue Mountains: equal first on points in Kentwell, mid-table everywhere else except Colts. Only 200 points away from the bottom of the CC table.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Unpopular opinion but I am a fan of the byes and wet weather weeks in the season. In this age of low commitment from players it helps manage this if you aren’t playing week in week out. The only thing would be if you were going to shorten the comp by a month then get rid of them.

Though when you run into a bye, Wet weather week and forfeit I can see how this will Be tough on clubs.

Good points.

Our netball ladies had their comp break for 3 weeks over school holidays. Maybe something like that needs to be considered, especially in light of Euro travel. Get the top 3 Divisions back to 8x8x8 and then have

Rounds 1-4
Wet Weather
Rounds 5-7
June Long Weekend
Rounds 8-11
July Break (1-2 weeks)
Rounds 12-14
Finals

If a wet weather game can't be played, just split the points and move on.
 

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
Will we ever get the top 3 division back to 8x8x8 - Thats 24 teams strong enough for 3 teams and a colts?

Half the Div 3 clubs cant even put up a 2nd grade side.

Need to be a bit realistic about how many grades clubs are going to be able to put up more than 1 grade week in week out.

If clubs can put up 5 grade and colts, why would you deny them regular games weekly just to ensure that a Div 2 side can have a 1st and 2nd grade game while the other club needs to find halligans for 3's 4's and 5's.
 

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
Div 1 - Round 11 Preview

Colleagues
- Mosman. Money Vs Money. Light blue Vs 2 shades of Blue. Privileged vs Entitled. This will be a great game. If you find your self in the Eastern Suburbs on a sunny Saturday then get down to this game. Mosman out of the 4 at the moment will want to win this to keep in touch with the pack. Colleagues to bounce back from a disappointing loss at Hudson I think. It will be interesting if they ask the Ref in the pre game chat about kicking times just to be safe. Colleagues by 6

St Pats - Petersham. 8th vs 9th. In any other division, this would be a fizzer. But these two teams have the ability to beat 1st and 2nd on their day. Hudson wont be welcoming, although given St Pats track record of one on and one off, This will be an off day. The forwards dont seem as strong as they were last year for Pats. Petersham with a bit of X-factor. Petersham by 1

Drummoyne - Waverley. This is a genuine toss up as well. Waverley have been very strong in the past few weeks and gaining some momentum into the last few games of the year. Drummoyne are a different kettle of fish at home. With the week off last week, I think they come into this fresh and surprise Waverley. Close game but ill go an upset to be different. Reds by 3

Forest - HH. One of the great subbies grounds to play at. Nothing like the abuse you get from the seats at Melwood before the guy who has spent 80 minutes bagging you, buying you a beer after the game. Lindfield used to be bad down in that corner with the couch but they wouldnt have a beer with you. Forest have been good this year without getting the results they would have wanted. This will be a great game which will be close for 70 minutes I think. Hoping that we can pull away in the last 10 and win. HH by 10
Dont mind me going 4/4 again in Kentwell

What a finish at Drummoyne. Waverley storm home from 28-10 down to get up 34-31 and then let Drummoyne score after the bell.

Huge end of the year coming up. I cant see Drummoyne missing the Finals with their final 3 games. 38 points should get you into the finals, but with 5 teams, I wonder who the odd man out will be. Colleagues have a tough run home with Blueys and a bye.
 

WoodyWoodsman

Sydney Middleton (9)
Kentwell9th (2-0-8)
Burke5th (6-0-4)
Whiddon9th (2-1-7)
Judd9th (1-0-9)
Barbour1st (10-0-0)

Besides Colts doing some heavy lifting, this is does not scream "strong" in terms of the division.

Let's remember Pats and Hunters came up to solve a problem (nobody in Div 2 wanted to play them) and overall have done well, but Pats only have 2 games left to make sure they stay out of the drop zone as well.
Kentwell Loss by less than 7 - 4/8. I'd say that they are competitive.
Burke losses by less than 7 - 2/4.
 

Heavyd

Nev Cottrell (35)
Div 2 2024

UNSW
Newport
Hills
Knox
Beecroft
Forest
Petersham
Sydney Harbour

I actually think Lindfield should stay in div 2 as even though they have dominated this year it has been (hopefully) a one off horrible standard across the grades. But they deserve the right to go up should they choose so i havent included them in DIV 2 but they would sub either Forest or Petersham should they stay. Certainly geographically DIV 2 would be a good comp for them with Knobs, forest, Newport, Hills and Beecroft all colser by. Fire away
 

HogansHeros

Syd Malcolm (24)
Div 2 2024

UNSW
Newport
Hills
Knox
Beecroft
Forest
Petersham
Sydney Harbour

I actually think Lindfield should stay in div 2 as even though they have dominated this year it has been (hopefully) a one off horrible standard across the grades. But they deserve the right to go up should they choose so i havent included them in DIV 2 but they would sub either Forest or Petersham should they stay. Certainly geographically DIV 2 would be a good comp for them with Knobs, forest, Newport, Hills and Beecroft all colser by. Fire away
How do you imagine Harbour will get 3 teams and a colts together? They are currently running with 1 team, and having SRU teams fill in colts and 2nds for them. Certainly a bandaid for this year but surely not long term.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Kentwell Loss by less than 7 - 4/8. I'd say that they are competitive.

I don't necessarily disagree. Looking at the results in Kentwell:

7 point win over Waverley (4th)
4 point loss to Forest (8th)
23 point loss to Colleagues (3rd)
6 point loss to Mosman (6th)
6 point loss to Waverley (4th)
24 point loss to Forest (8th)
4 point loss to BlueMtns (2nd)
26 point loss to Mosman (6th)
1 point win over Colleagues (3rd) - marred by the kicker countdown controversy
9 point loss to Petersham (7th)

They've managed to beat a top 4 side and proceeded to lose to the guys sitting just above them on the table by varying margins. The ones in bold, mainly.

In a couple of years that Colts side should make them very competitive again, but unless Kentwell and Burke get their skates on, they'll be under threat as much as any of Mosman, Petersham, or Forest.
 

WoodyWoodsman

Sydney Middleton (9)
Div 2 2024

UNSW
Newport
Hills
Knox
Beecroft
Forest
Petersham
Sydney Harbour

I actually think Lindfield should stay in div 2 as even though they have dominated this year it has been (hopefully) a one off horrible standard across the grades. But they deserve the right to go up should they choose so i havent included them in DIV 2 but they would sub either Forest or Petersham should they stay. Certainly geographically DIV 2 would be a good comp for them with Knobs, forest, Newport, Hills and Beecroft all colser by. Fire away
So Knox and Beecroft with two grades and colts, as well as Sydney Harbour with one grade, head up to Division 2, but Epping, Briars and Hawkesbury Valley, who all fielded three grades and colts are gone????
How many teams are the second club on the list taking to their away fixture at Epping this week?
 

Prodigy

Alex Ross (28)
Div 2 2024

UNSW
Newport
Hills
Knox
Beecroft
Forest
Petersham
Sydney Harbour

I actually think Lindfield should stay in div 2 as even though they have dominated this year it has been (hopefully) a one off horrible standard across the grades. But they deserve the right to go up should they choose so i havent included them in DIV 2 but they would sub either Forest or Petersham should they stay. Certainly geographically DIV 2 would be a good comp for them with Knobs, forest, Newport, Hills and Beecroft all colser by. Fire away
One of the worst takes of the year. And there’s been a few.
 

Oldsoldier

Stan Wickham (3)
So Knox and Beecroft with two grades and colts, as well as Sydney Harbour with one grade, head up to Division 2, but Epping, Briars and Hawkesbury Valley, who all fielded three grades and colts are gone????
How many teams are the second club on the list taking to their away fixture at Epping this wee
Sydney harbour fielding as many grade sides as Newport so worth a shot I guess
 

The Wombat

Herbert Moran (7)
Will we ever get the top 3 division back to 8x8x8 - Thats 24 teams strong enough for 3 teams and a colts?

Half the Div 3 clubs cant even put up a 2nd grade side.

Need to be a bit realistic about how many grades clubs are going to be able to put up more than 1 grade week in week out.

If clubs can put up 5 grade and colts, why would you deny them regular games weekly just to ensure that a Div 2 side can have a 1st and 2nd grade game while the other club needs to find halligans for 3's 4's and 5's.
10 teams in dif 1 has merit. Forest, Petersham, Pats and Mosman are all capable of fielding 5 grades + colts, (Mosman will bounce back to its usual 2 colts teams next year.) Sending them down a div where it’s a shit fight for some teams to have a second grade would be detrimental for player retention at those clubs.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Sending them down a div where it’s a shit fight for some teams to have a second grade would be detrimental for player retention at those clubs.

Less than ideal, I agree.

Anyone who has observed Subbies for the last 10 years probably realises we have a "Div 1 vs everything else" problem.... no wait: "challenge". That's the word I'm meant to use at work ;)

Strong clubs at the top who are capable of maintaining a Colts program *cough* Waverley *cough* and good numbers in Grade.

However, you'll also have clubs who probably know they'd just get destroyed up against big clubs, and seem perfectly happy with 2nd Div e.g. Hills.

We might be at the point where we consider dissolving Divisions at the bottom end to fill gaps at the top end, and that requires a lot of change in thinking, and creates real issues compared with how the system operates now. Some of these smaller clubs won't have many home ground fixtures, and be forced to play at unsuitable times, hastening the disillusionment of some players and officials.

It will probably accelerate the erosion of Subbies as we know it, eventually becoming something like this:

* First Division as an impenetrable bastion of mostly Eastern Suburbs clubs, with resources and juniors as appropriate
* Second Division being a big step down in numbers and quality (3 Grades + Colts is probably the limit, more likely just 3 Grades)
* Third Division as a group of single grade clubs, fighting over the scraps of whatever players are left, like mutants in a wasteland of league and AFL
 
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Denistone_Dennis

Chris McKivat (8)
10 teams in dif 1 has merit. Forest, Petersham, Pats and Mosman are all capable of fielding 5 grades + colts, (Mosman will bounce back to its usual 2 colts teams next year.) Sending them down a div where it’s a shit fight for some teams to have a second grade would be detrimental for player retention at those clubs.
You're right, we should protect Div 1 from those savages in the lower divisions.

Next year lets run a hunger games for the Div 1 clubs made up of those pesky lower divisions.
 

DaSchmooze

Johnnie Wallace (23)
I don't necessarily disagree. Looking at the results in Kentwell:

7 point win over Waverley (4th)
4 point loss to Forest (8th)
23 point loss to Colleagues (3rd)
6 point loss to Mosman (6th)
6 point loss to Waverley (4th)
24 point loss to Forest (8th)
4 point loss to BlueMtns (2nd)
26 point loss to Mosman (6th)
1 point win over Colleagues (3rd) - marred by the kicker countdown controversy
9 point loss to Petersham (7th)

They've managed to beat a top 4 side and proceeded to lose to the guys sitting just above them on the table by varying margins. The ones in bold, mainly.

In a couple of years that Colts side should make them very competitive again, but unless Kentwell and Burke get their skates on, they'll be under threat as much as any of Mosman, Petersham, or Forest.
As good as it has been to see Drummoyne do well this year, the fact that they (and possibly other examples in years past) didn't go down to Div based on anything other than their total points creates confusion and speculation. If the worst club isn't determined by it's total points score across all grades, then we move into a committee's assessment as to who should and who shouldn't go.

I think you only need to look at what happens in English Rugby to see how much of a shit fight that causes.
 

HogansHeros

Syd Malcolm (24)
Less than ideal, I agree.

Anyone who has observed Subbies for the last 10 years probably realises we have a "Div 1 vs everything else" problem.... no wait: "challenge". That's the word I'm meant to use at work ;)

Strong clubs at the top who are capable of maintaining a Colts program *cough* Waverley *cough* and good numbers in Grade.

However, you'll also have clubs who probably know they'd just get destroyed up against big clubs, and seem perfectly happy with 2nd Div e.g. Hills.

We might be at the point where we consider dissolving Divisions at the bottom end to fill gaps at the top end, and that requires a lot of change in thinking, and creates real issues compared with how the system operates now. Some of these smaller clubs won't have many home ground fixtures, and be forced to play at unsuitable times, hastening the disillusionment of some players and officials.

It will probably accelerate the erosion of Subbies as we know it, eventually becoming something like this:

* First Division as an impenetrable bastion of mostly Eastern Suburbs clubs, with resources and juniors as appropriate
* Second Division being a big step down in numbers and quality (3 Grades + Colts is probably the limit, more likely just 3 Grades)
* Third Division as a group of single grade clubs, fighting over the scraps of whatever players are left, like mutants in a wasteland of league and AFL

There's a bloody lot of clubs out there, amalgamations should be highly encouraged, "for the greater good". Just have 3 Divs of strong clubs, instead of the mess we have now.

Hills/Renegades - Hillygades
Beecroft/Epping - Beeping
Sydney Harbour/Maccabi - Jewish Harbour
Knox OB/Barker OB - Knoker OB
Western Raptors/Blacktown - Blacktors
 

Eastcoast

Larry Dwyer (12)
There's a bloody lot of clubs out there, amalgamations should be highly encouraged, "for the greater good". Just have 3 Divs of strong clubs, instead of the mess we have now.

Hills/Renegades - Hillygades
Beecroft/Epping - Beeping
Sydney Harbour/Maccabi - Jewish Harbour
Knox OB/Barker OB - Knoker OB
Western Raptors/Blacktown - Blacktors
Why not the following;


Hills/Renegades - The Rouse Hills
Beecroft/Epping - The Northern Line
Sydney Harbour/Maccabi - Jewish Harbour - I like this one
Knox OB/Barker OB - The Old Boys
Western Raptors/Blacktown - Western Warriors
 

Champagne Rugby

Stan Wickham (3)
Potential Division make up for next year

Div 1: 4/5 grades + colts
1. Colleagues
2. Drummoyne
3. Waverly
4. Hunters Hill
5. St Pats
6. Blue Mountains
7. Mosman
8. Lindfield

Mosman get the benefit of doubt of will have strong numbers and have had an off year, whilst this may seem unfair - petersham have had been down the bottom for a couple of years and I think will benefit from a year or 2 in the div 2 and Forrest I think are a solid chance of finishing below mosman.

Div 2: 3 grades + Colts
1. Petersham
2. Forrest
3. UNSW
4. Hills
5. Newport
6. Epping
7. Briars
8. Beecroft

Tossup between valley and Briars, sided with Valley to drop with valley being lower on CC points. All clubs should be able to field 3 teams + colts and it should be higher quality with the introduction of Petersham and Forrest.

Div 3:
Valley
Harbour
Knobs
Harlequins
Bobs
Old Iggies
+ another club
+ another club

This is the hardest division as i'm not sure many of the teams in div 4 can develop a colts side. I also don't believe its in Iggies best interest to stay in the division but the division needs them. Dont envy the subbies board as they try to figure out the shape of this divison.
 
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