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Sydney Subbies 2014

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Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
That's brilliant. You're right Barbarian about the difficulties of enforcement but what it will do is make it much harder for Clubs. It will also make a lot of the Shute Shield quality players think twice about playing Subbies because their lives will become significantly more painful as they have to lie about what they're doing.

The extra weekends off will now doubt help many clubs as players can organise going away around matches, not conflict with them. Plus the "older gentlemen" such as myself will be able to last a full year.

More players for Clubs, less top loading of players, better depth for Shute Shield as semi-professionals step up. And finally away to fill that pesky Division 4. Sounds like a win all round.

For "Cross-divisional" read under 85kgs.

Going to be great.
 

Crashy

Ron Walden (29)
From what I understand there is a Melbourne suburban AFL comp called the Ammos – short for the Amateurs and like subbies rugby in Sydney, its a comp made up of a lot of old boys, sub-district, university and social clubs ( read Briars and Colleagues) who play the game for what it is without player a payments.
I think its a good thing though not sure which 2 clubs will be dropped from Div 2 next year. They’ll need to enforce the colts team requirement for Div 3 in my opinion.
Some big changes happening in rugby at the moment, pretty much all of them I like. Like rugby before it went pro, the game can thrive without the lure of filthy lucre as money can cause more damage than good. You only have to look at half the NRL teams which are eating themselves alive such as the Tigers and Cronulla but are given more money than ever before.
 

Crashy

Ron Walden (29)
It also means that those clubs who have a lot of annual cashflow can potentially divert funds to cheaper subs, coaches, trainers and any other non-monetary inducement for players to turn up for them each year.
 

Ozzie Bob

Ted Thorn (20)
I like the changes that have been made. I think it is time to do a complete re-jig of all the divisions. I really do feel for some clubs in Div 1 like Iggies who have reasonable numbers and proud history yet they are up against semi pro clubs. Most clubs go in cycles with player numbers unless there is a financial incentive to stay. I also think that clubs should be punished for failing to have teams in all grades.

My teams for each Divison

DIV 1
Balmain
Drummoyne
Colleagues
Campbelltown
Petersham
Beecroft
Mosman
Knox
St Pats
Forest (They have good numbers and a solid history in Div1)

Div 2
Barker Old boys
Blue Mountains
Hunters Hill
Lindfield
Oatley
UNSW
Old Iggies
Brothers

Div 3
Newport (Didnt have 4th grade this year, this is a big issue)
St Ives
Hornsby
Kings Old Boys
Epping
Hawkesbury Valley
Waverley
Hills

4th Division
UWS Hawkesbury
Sydney Harlequins
Blacktown
Redfield
Sydney Irish
Macquarie Uni
Merrylands
St George

5th Division
Canterbury
Colleagues Convicts
Fairvale/Lansvale
Lane Cove
Maccabi
Roseville
Rouse Hill
?????????

Div 6
Alexandria Dukes
Burraneer
Chatswood
Clovelly
Dundas Valley
International College of Management Sydney (ICMS)
Manly Savers
Rockdale
Sydney Grammar Old Boys
Terrey Hills

I am sure people will blow up about my choices (Iggies dropping without being relegated, Forest being promoted without winning it, Newport and St Ives being dropped without coming last, St George winning first grade and being dropped, Blacktown and UWS Hawkesbury being dropped a division and you could argue that BOBs are lucky to retain their spot in Div 2 (Although they did spend 2012 and 11 in 1st Div) but this is just based on some clubs (Newport, Blacktown and St George being unable to fill all their teams.

Hit me with the blowtorch!
 

Ozzie Bob

Ted Thorn (20)
Also heard that Balmain might be interested in being one of Sydney's representatives in the new ARU club comp. Any truth to that?
 

Oldpig

Stan Wickham (3)
OB, most will welcome the changes, a few won't. Agree to disagree with you on your comments in general. What point are you trying to make other than offering your own 'ideal' competition. Arguing that Iggies should be relegated because they are not having a great time right now lacks any logical basis. They still managed to field teams in all grades this yrs, even winning the Sutherland Cup and making semi's in the Barbour Cup. They are a strong club with a great history but as you stated they're going thru some lean times, no reason to punish them. They earned their position in the spirit of the competition. To the best of my knowledge they have always fielded teams in all grades unlike some other high profile & some would argue semi professional clubs that have not fielded teams in lower grades over the last few yrs.
Part of the problem with Div 1 and I suspect one of the reasons behind the changes is it has become in recent yrs a two tiered competition with the stronger & almost semi professional clubs dominating the higher grades and a second competition taking place amongst the lower grades. We all know some clubs have been paying players in one form or other and some of these clubs have been openly expressing a desire to compete in a more competitive competition, good luck to them.
Subbies is and has always been an amateur competition and I think the proposed changes will help maintain that and hopefully create a more level playing field for all clubs regardless of what division they play in.
 

Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
OB, most will welcome the changes, a few won't. Agree to disagree with you on 'some of' your comments.

No Blowtorch - maybe a mid range hairdryer. Looking at your lists of Clubs I think you may find some of your higher placed clubs will struggle in an amateur world. Like many clubs over the years, money does not create culture and when it stops, players leave. Rather than the cash running out this time, Subbies are stopping it. The smart, well financed Clubs will do as Crashy suggests and invest in infrastructure.

We could also see the end of foreign players, as without any ability to hold them to a club, any money spent becomes a high end risk. How easy would it be for Shute Shield Clubs to come sniffing around after Subbies Clubs have shelled out the cash for flights. Get a decent foreign player to bolster their Club's depth at the discount rate by not having to pay for flights.

Playing devil's advocate here, if handled badly this could create a very spiteful competition. As mentioned, enforcement will be difficult. With rules being placed around payments, the usual claims that simply say "no fair" could turn into full blown accusations of cheating. I thinks it very important for Clubs to keep a cool head when this kicks in or animosity could spread.

Question - does covering subs constitute payment for service? Membership expenses are on the permissible list "proveded these are available to all players". The moment a club discounts/covers for one player they're obliged to offer it to everyone. I doubt any Club can afford that kind of generosity.

Depressive thoughts aside, I believe it will be a major positive development for Subbies Rugby and Sydney rugby in general. Especially the shorter seasons will be appealing to many players.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Yeah the shorter season is a big hit at our club. We really struggle to sustain our numbers over 18 weeks, with injuries, holidays etc. draining our players at various times of the year.
 

Whale berry

Larry Dwyer (12)
" Like many clubs over the years, money does not create culture and when it stops, players leave. Rather than the cash running out this time, Subbies are stopping it. The smart, well financed Clubs will do as Crashy suggests and invest in infrastructure."

Over the years we could all name clubs that have invested in name players to the detriment of the guys playing in the lower grades. The clubs have success for a couple of years, then the name players move on, the lower grades have already moved on, then the club begins the slide to oblivion.

The only way to survive and grow is to develop the colts and have a well run club with lots of social interaction. We all know that but it hasn't stopped clubs or individuals in clubs trying to buy premiership glory.

Enforcement will be the biggest problem, back in the amateur days, you had players changing clubs because some one bought them a new house (Shute Shield/International level) or at lower levels clubs paying for knee operations and the like.

Just because enforcement will be difficult it doesn't mean that by and large that Subbies will be a better place that will reward clubs that build from within.
 

Heavyd

Cyril Towers (30)
My teams for each Divison

DIV 1
Balmain
Drummoyne
Colleagues
Campbelltown
Petersham
Beecroft
Mosman
Knox
St Pats
Forest (They have good numbers and a solid history in Div1)

Div 2
Barker Old boys
Blue Mountains
Hunters Hill
Lindfield
Oatley
UNSW
Old Iggies
Brothers

Div 3
Newport (Didnt have 4th grade this year, this is a big issue)
St Ives
Hornsby
Kings Old Boys
Epping
Hawkesbury Valley
Waverley
Hills

4th Division
UWS Hawkesbury
Sydney Harlequins
Blacktown
Redfield
Sydney Irish
Macquarie Uni
Merrylands
St George

I am sure people will blow up about my choices (Iggies dropping without being relegated, Forest being promoted without winning it, Newport and St Ives being dropped without coming last, St George winning first grade and being dropped, Blacktown and UWS Hawkesbury being dropped a division and you could argue that BOBs are lucky to retain their spot in Div 2 (Although they did spend 2012 and 11 in 1st Div) but this is just based on some clubs (Newport, Blacktown and St George being unable to fill all their teams.

Hit me with the blowtorch!


Interesting analysis. Certainly 2nd Div clubs would love a North shore club so assume they'd hate to see the back of Newport and the Saints.
Suggest you are being a bit hard on Newport who if memory serves me won 4th grade two years running prior to this years game time change.
My mail for 2nd DIV relegation is Brothers. If the money is gone Brothers have nothing in the lower grades and will struggle to field sides. Interesting times ahead!
 

Ozzie Bob

Ted Thorn (20)
OB, most will welcome the changes, a few won't. Agree to disagree with you on your comments in general. What point are you trying to make other than offering your own 'ideal' competition. Arguing that Iggies should be relegated because they are not having a great time right now lacks any logical basis. They still managed to field teams in all grades this yrs, even winning the Sutherland Cup and making semi's in the Barbour Cup. They are a strong club with a great history but as you stated they're going thru some lean times, no reason to punish them. They earned their position in the spirit of the competition. To the best of my knowledge they have always fielded teams in all grades unlike some other high profile & some would argue semi professional clubs that have not fielded teams in lower grades over the last few yrs.
Part of the problem with Div 1 and I suspect one of the reasons behind the changes is it has become in recent yrs a two tiered competition with the stronger & almost semi professional clubs dominating the higher grades and a second competition taking place amongst the lower grades. We all know some clubs have been paying players in one form or other and some of these clubs have been openly expressing a desire to compete in a more competitive competition, good luck to them.
Subbies is and has always been an amateur competition and I think the proposed changes will help maintain that and hopefully create a more level playing field for all clubs regardless of what division they play in.

Mate i can agree with your opinion. Iggies DO deserve their place in Div 1 and maybe i was just thinking they might be better off in Div 2 where they could have successful years and rebuild the numbers.

I think we should just make it a free for all. Lets make clubs apply to be in Divisions. If say UNSW or Forest (For example) think that they have the numbers and strength to be in Div 1 then let them put their case forward.
 

Ozzie Bob

Ted Thorn (20)
Interesting analysis. Certainly 2nd Div clubs would love a North shore club so assume they'd hate to see the back of Newport and the Saints.
Suggest you are being a bit hard on Newport who if memory serves me won 4th grade two years running prior to this years game time change.
My mail for 2nd DIV relegation is Brothers. If the money is gone Brothers have nothing in the lower grades and will struggle to field sides. Interesting times ahead!


Yes i think this is also an interesting point re Brothers. They have stormed to 3 first grade premierships in a row, but is it helping their whole club? With the money gone how far do they fall?
 

Crashy

Ron Walden (29)
Ozzie Bob - can you please reduce the mungo-ness of your photo! I'll give you one of my old Bobs jerseys to wear.
I guess the Tiges are about to go bankrupt anyway so perhaps your jersey might be worth something.
Rumour has it Newport has a new President. Never met him but hates a beer apparently.
 

Ozzie Bob

Ted Thorn (20)
Anybody got any info on any new players for clubs or any movement of coaches?

I cant wait to see what happens with Balmain this year and whether they will make an attempt to go into the NRC. De barts and Crossy better start training!
 

Eyes and Ears

Colin Windon (37)
De Barts was great in the 2007 ARC. He scored an amazing try in the Fleet v Spirit match at Nth Sydney Oval IIRC. I think he will be a bit long in the tooth for the 2014 version.
 

Tommy Tudehope

Ted Fahey (11)
Nothing against Balmain but I think I would prefer to see the Subbies Rep side feature in the ARC. They would probably be a little more competitive.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Division 4 is getting confirmed this week with the following teams I hear:

Blacktown
Macquarie Uni
Convicts
Redfield
St George
Irish
Harlequins
 

Ozzie Bob

Ted Thorn (20)
Division 4 is getting confirmed this week with the following teams I hear:

Blacktown
Macquarie Uni
Convicts
Redfield
St George
Irish
Harlequins

Cant believe how far Blacktown have fallen.

Are Merrylands going to end up in Div 3 or 5?
 
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