Sydney Subbies 2025

[DaSchmooze]

After only a few rounds (a lot can change between now and R14) you'd say Newport or Drummoyne. They haven't had a fast start in the top grades. don't have 5s and will have some tough days in 2025 against the heavyweights.

If there is one thing that can be taken from previous years, the Club Championship is not what it used to be and doesn't hold the same value as it did previously. In my view, it's an award/achievement the top clubs in each division aspire to. It seems to be less important at the lower end with Subbies looking at various other measure of capacity/potential/strength. With that said, I'd be reluctant to relegate Drummoyne or Newport even if they happened to finish 8th on the CC. These are clubs that have the critical mass and infrastructure to improve.

Do you go with a 9 team div 1 in 2026 and bring in UNSW and a bye? the return to a 10 club division was rejected before the 2024 season and I'd guess that remains the case. Also as it stands no one in Div 2 other than UNSW are close to Div 1. Petersham would be the closest but have had their struggles in recent years and a lack depth. St Pat's are well off the pace this year and have had a big personnel change in the grades. Forest, similar to St Pat's, don't seem to have the quality of the past 5 years and their colts situation is dicey. Briars don't have the quality or depth and have been shown up a bit this year without the allstar 1s team.

However it goes, I can't see anyone from Div 2 getting relegated. The 6 club format with Irish getting topped up by Burraneer and Waverley is crying out for more competition. LCOI are on the right track. Can Beecroft and/or Hills bounce back. Do Knox have ambitions to return?

The Club Champs provides an objective measurement to how your team has performed for the year.

The minute you make the decision to turn it into a subjective assessment, you open yourselves to calls of nepotism and scorn. And in my opinion rightfully so.

Keep the club champs as the only metric for promotion/relegation. If your club is as good as you say it is, then they will bounce back the season after.

If Colleagues or Drummoyne finish last then they take their medicine in Div 2 - simple.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

I can’t see any teams being lifted out of Div 2 without a replacement. UNSW could be unlucky if Subbies make the decision to not promote/relegate. Though with 5 teams and a womens and a strong year in Division 2 it might be time to give them a chance.

Whilst LCOI numbers have been there and would love to see them grow and take on Div 2 I don’t think the quality is there to come up against some of the bigger clubs in Div 2. We have seen with Blacktown moving up isn’t always the best option in terms of results.

Hills would have to be the best option to move back up running 3 grades now with the backing of Colleagues Colts. Maybe make Div 2 7 teams and the bye next year with the view of LCOI taking it back to 8 the following year?

Though as you lift 1 team out of Div 3 that comp won’t exist and the likely outcome would be to merge it with the Div 5 comp. Which would take you to a 13 team comp with 2 byes.
Might be another tough pre season for Subbies balancing these divisions again.

 

[Oak_Wood]

I wonder if the Blacktown Beecroft game will be double points or they are planning on rescheduling?
I think both sides would appreciate not having to fit in a mid week game given they are at either end of the table.
We already have the possibility of a Triple Point Round for Blacktown in this division against Knox.
Tough road ahead for Blacktown boys if they want to play all these catch up games.

I've heard on the grape vine this game is for double points....

 

[Pfitzy]

I'd be reluctant to relegate Drummoyne or Newport even if they happened to finish 8th on the CC. These are clubs that have the critical mass and infrastructure to improve.

Agreed - looking from the outside, it might be time to stabilise at 8 teams and look for the next 2 clubs who can get to 3 Grades + Colts and fill that hole.

 

[Pfitzy]

Do you go with a 9 team div 1 in 2026 and bring in UNSW and a bye? the return to a 10 club division was rejected before the 2024 season and I'd guess that remains the case.

9 Clubs + a Bye is the same as 10 clubs in scheduling terms - you still have to plan full rounds of Home and Away, which makes 18 rounds + finals, which clubs have firmly rejected.

 

[footy_footy]

9 Clubs + a Bye is the same as 10 clubs in scheduling terms - you still have to plan full rounds of Home and Away, which makes 18 rounds + finals, which clubs have firmly rejected.

I do wonder now though that clubs have seen how the Divisions have panned out and some of the chaos that has followed whether they would be inclined to change their mind. The Div 1 clubs won't because they've always been fine and have a nice draw - the other divisions may be open to a change that sees regular, consistent and competitive rugby.

all much easier said than done I appreciate and there is no easy answer. all food for thought

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

We all know the nice shiny number we want to get to that makes for the perfect season but what happens when it’s not possible to hit that mark. Div 1 has been lucky to be relatively untouched unlike the other divisions.

When we are grouping like sized clubs together to form divisions and not basing it on results is it fair on UNSW to have to organise a Halligans every week when there are teams in Div 1 not meeting requirements?

How about the following?
Div 1- 7 teams 14 rounds with bye. UNSW up and Drummoyne & Newport down.
Div 2- 7 teams 14 rounds with bye. Drummoyne and Newport extra teams.
Div 3- 14 teams play everyone once. Combination of div 3 and 5. Colts comp seperate combined with Div 4.
Div 4- 14 teams play everyone once.
Combination of Div 4 & 6. Colts comp seperate combined with Div 3.

Finals for Div 3 & 4 would be split top half and bottom half.

You could split the divisions above up into 7 teams if we wanted the 2 extra divisions with a bye as opposed to playing every week.

 

[Pfitzy]

When we are grouping like sized clubs together to form divisions and not basing it on results is it fair on UNSW to have to organise a Halligans every week when there are teams in Div 1 not meeting requirements?

Everyone knew the division sizing going into the season. And how many clubs could promise they'd have exactly the number of grades required - no more, no less - at the start of February?

Did LCOIRFC know they were going to have 2 Colts teams? Or Chatswood?
In a 2-Grade club when you have 40 blokes registered in March are you guaranteed 30 will show up every week for the whole season?
I've got 65 registered and get less than 40 each week.

Do we look at a cutoff system like Rugby League have? They get maximum squad sizes and that's it - if you want to play go help another club in your area.

I know I'm going directly against the Sydney Uni "don't punish us for our success" the fact remains that inequitable sizing is a fact of life while no guard rails are in place.

We can't rail against Premier clubs for warehousing Colts, and in the same breath go "ah poor club suffering under the weight of numbers - we should promote them!" and in the next talk about newly promoted clubs getting whacked.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Everyone knew the division sizing going into the season. And how many clubs could promise they'd have exactly the number of grades required - no more, no less - at the start of February?

Did LCOIRFC know they were going to have 2 Colts teams? Or Chatswood?
In a 2-Grade club when you have 40 blokes registered in March are you guaranteed 30 will show up every week for the whole season?
I've got 65 registered and get less than 40 each week.

Do we look at a cutoff system like Rugby League have? They get maximum squad sizes and that's it - if you want to play go help another club in your area.

I know I'm going directly against the Sydney Uni "don't punish us for our success" the fact remains that inequitable sizing is a fact of life while no guard rails are in place.

We can't rail against Premier clubs for warehousing Colts, and in the same breat go "ah poor club suffering under the weight of numbers - we should promote them!" and in the next talk about newly promoted clubs getting whacked.

Fully agree pfitzy. My thought is towards next year given the numbers in the clubs abd what those divisions could evolve to. UNSW having solid numbers thus far, if they don’t get to go up next year how can we fit everyone in

 

[Heavyd]

UNSW have been on the brink of this success for 5+ years now and consistently 2nd or 3rd on the club championship. Have come up against some good opposition like Lindfield and Newport but seems as though 2025 is their time. Well done to them. Unsure how many players attend the Uni but will semester break have any effect on their roll towards final. Given their critical mass,

Fully agree pfitzy. My thought is towards next year given the numbers in the clubs abd what those divisions could evolve to. UNSW having solid numbers thus far, if they don’t get to go up next year how can we fit everyone in

Challenge is will all those players be there next year?

 

[Pfitzy]

Challenge is will all those players be there next year?

It is constant flux. Too many one year, too few the next.

I think if Div 1 is riding along fairly competitively across the Grades, it should be tinkered with as little as possible.

The priority - even with a strong UNSW - is to stabilise Divisions 2 & 3 with as many clubs as possible. It is up to those clubs to retain their player base, whether the issue is too much game time or not enough. There simply isn't another way.

Adding at least one club to Division 2 should be the priority, and IMHO Knox are the ones running out of excuses as a former Div 1 club. They should have the contacts and the firepower to be competitive in a 7-club comp.

More importantly, both NSWRU and Subbies together, should be looking at how we establish better pathways for Subbies clubs to access Colts, rather than just relying on word of mouth or people who are subject to being single points of failure.

If we're serious about more Colts sides, that is.

The Western Sydney Colts program wasn't perfect, no. I think there is merit in pursuing something more targeted in terms of connecting schools and junior clubs to their local Subbies seniors.

 

[footy_footy]

Challenge is will all those players be there next year?

The Halligan cup WhatsApp answers this question - no!

Look at the clubs looking for games last year v this year. Clubs have good years and bad years.

Being able to maintain that level of participation is crucial - Mosman & Colleagues are the best at this. Hunters and Blueys now following. Waverley have a wonderful luxury of backpackers that keeps them going. Lindfield on the up at the moment and Drummoyne not. Newport forfeited a 4s game last year and don’t have 5s, ever really.

Number of players doesn’t always equal quality of players.

 

[EddieJones1985]

Challenge is will all those players be there next year?

Does winning a premiership mean less players returning generally?

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Challenge is will all those players be there next year?

What if Newport’s players weren’t there this year? UNSW has had much more consistent numbers then Newport and alongside there results I think it’s time to give them a shot on Div 1 so who ever finishes last in CC should drop.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

It is constant flux. Too many one year, too few the next.

I think if Div 1 is riding along fairly competitively across the Grades, it should be tinkered with as little as possible.

The priority - even with a strong UNSW - is to stabilise Divisions 2 & 3 with as many clubs as possible. It is up to those clubs to retain their player base, whether the issue is too much game time or not enough. There simply isn't another way.

Adding at least one club to Division 2 should be the priority, and IMHO Knox are the ones running out of excuses as a former Div 1 club. They should have the contacts and the firepower to be competitive in a 7-club comp.

More importantly, both NSWRU and Subbies together, should be looking at how we establish better pathways for Subbies clubs to access Colts, rather than just relying on word of mouth or people who are subject to being single points of failure.

If we're serious about more Colts sides, that is.

The Western Sydney Colts program wasn't perfect, no. I think there is merit in pursuing something more targeted in terms of connecting schools and junior clubs to their local Subbies seniors.

I’d like to know how serious Shute clubs are about there lower grade colts. Usually shoved at 9am on game day on another field of a week night to get them over with. It would be best for the game if those players could be welcomed into Subbies to bolster a lot of clubs.
Before you all say it yes I know the issues and why players play for Shute etc and what happens if there wasn’t a side. But just seems Subbies club could use these kids more

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

I feel like no one cares but watching UNSW vs Briars and @Here To Do is having an impossible time telling them apart.
Our rules state that teams should be changing but no one seems to care?

 

[MasterSergeant]

What if Newport’s players weren’t there this year? UNSW has had much more consistent numbers then Newport and alongside there results I think it’s time to give them a shot on Div 1 so who ever finishes last in CC should drop.

Not sure I agree with this, It takes more than 1 sparrow to make a summer. I think Newport have been the most consistent Div 2 side in the last 4 years winning 2 and losing 1 GF.
That consistency far out performs UNSW.
A 2nd yr in Division 1 is probably warranted as the step up is a big one and time will be needed to adapt. I would suggest no change next year and Drummoyne will not be dropped from Subbies. Can you imagine that happening for the first time in Kentwell history? I don’t think so.

 

[Heavyd]

Does winning a premiership mean less players returning generally?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Would love to see some Friday night footy. Get along to it if it’s local and see some other clubs or catch up on NSW Rugby TV. Would be great to have a beer watching some other clubs.
I know not every club is capable and players aren’t available and refs etc but maybe could do 1 game a month would give an opportunity to rotate it across between all clubs in the division as something to look forward too.
Play lower grades (if needed) on the Saturday and play 1s and 2s or Colts on the Friday night.

The Hunter Rugby Union run a Friday night social league. All games played in one of two venues. Meaning opportunities for multiple games at each venue. Requiring less overall commitment in terms of training etc.

Could be a worthwhile model to look to emulate. Though I'd suggest making it a 10s league and introducing womens and over 35 divisions.

 

[Crashy]

How’s heavy-d?