Uni bastards

[Bruce Ross]

To say Sydney University Football Club fielded teams in 2009 State Championships in the "Under 13, 15 and 16 levels" is a bit cute, Bruce. I checked with my son, a current student, and he advised me he's NEVER seen school children anywhere on the Camperdown or Darlington campuses during normal lecture times.

A bit of history: a set of criteria was formulated some 10 or 15 years ago for the Sydney premiership clubs to take part in the top competition, including the development of juniors. Sydney University were at an obvious disadvantage here as regards juniors: simply, they didn't have any and couldn't develop any as they are an adult university. So, they purloined Canterbury Rugby Club's juniors and convinced them to parade as Sydney University when required (ie, State Championships). It's pertinent to note here Canterbury still played as Canterbury in the Sydney JRU's Metropolitan Southern Zone weekly competition. I'm not involved in junior rugby administration as I was in the early noughties, but my friends inform me SUFC have done something similar with Petersham RFC's juniors since. The Canterbury and Petersham junior teams were developed by their senior clubs well before their current involvement with SUFC, which is a sham. It is nothing more than the nautical equivalent of a flag of convenience. How many Under 13s or 15s attend Sydney University? Obviously none.

You're on to me like a flash, aren't you Lindommer? I thought I could get away with an obviously misleading statement that "in 2009 Uni fielded teams in the State Championships at Under 13, Under 15 and Under 16 levels". But you shot me down by pointing out that your student son had "NEVER seen school children anywhere on the ... campuses during normal lecture times." That apparently proves I was trying to be "a bit cute".

And you save your killer blow for the end with your rhetorical question: "How many Under 13s or 15s attend Sydney University? Obviously none." Touché! That really leaves me feeling like a goose.

How can I wriggle my way out in the face of such devastating logic? I'll give it a go.

You state that Sydney Uni's involvement in junior rugby is "a sham" and "nothing more than the nautical equivalent of a flag of convenience."

Let me quote a few lines from the Juniors Report in the Sydney University Football Club Annual Report 2009:

"Off the field this season there were two standout events that must be noted; firstly Ray Hudd took on the role as Juniors Coaching Coordinator and in the pre season for 2009 the Junior EDS [Elite Development Squad] was introduced under the management of Nick Ryan [Colts Technical Director] and Greg Mumm [Director of Rugby].

"Ray has been instrumental in raising the standard of coaching and in his creative thinking on ideas to raise player stocks and ability. Ray also steered his under 16's team to that impressive State Championship victory as Head Coach. The Junior EDS program provided valuable insight into SUFC culture and the professionalism which drives the club at higher levels. This pre-season program will be an ongoing part of our Juniors/Seniors structure into the future.

"Recruiting the right calibre of coach is a challenge in rugby and no less in Juniors. So we were extremely pleased to secure Ray Hudd, Joel Rivers, Dane Cole-Clark and James Godfrey for the 16's, the indomitable Charles Carter and Wade Gudgeon for the 15's and Sam Williamson and Carl Tui for the 13's.

"Once again the Juniors gained from the contributions from senior players who gave their time and expertise at coaching sessions. These included Tom Carter [*Red alert for the Carter haters*], Luke Burgess, John Morellato, Alex Kanaar and of course Nick Ryan and Greg Mumm.

"This season we also took on the responsibility of hosting both the Under 16 and Under 17 State Championships at the University."

As you so perceptively pointed out, Lindommer, "a sham" and "nothing more than ... a flag of convenience".

I've spent the past twenty years trying to assist the various sporting clubs at Sydney Uni. The approach that I've found works best in all sports is not to worry about what rival clubs are doing; just focus on making your own club the best it can be.

 

[gone]

With regard to Berrick Barnes I would just make the point that as a matter of policy Uni does not recruit grade players from outside the Club. In fact he is the first top grade outsider to join the Club since Julian Huxley in 2006. I would be very confident that neither player was paid a dollar to join Uni.

Sorry Bruce but I don’t buy that…

For starters you are forgetting Luke Burgess. From what I’ve heard (and admittedly it is all pure rumour and speculation) Uni approached him and Easts couldn’t match their offering (I have no idea what the offering was). Knowing the pay scale of some of the East’s players I would interested to know how Uni secured his services.

You may know may know better than I do what happened with Burgess (and I may be completely wrong on that matter) but I do know for a fact that Uni did approach a Gordon first grader last offseason and dollars were involved. Gordon was forced to stump up more cash (which they did) or lose the player. Unfortunately situations like this (not only with Uni) have put real pressure on Gordon financially. Given that Gordon is struggling one can only imagine how little hope the Parramatta's of this system have.

 

[cyclopath]

The day that Uni establish a junior club, field their own teams from ages 7-16 is the day you can say that Uni develop junior rugby.
They are nothing less than pirates (apologies to Wests) raiding the coffers of more diligent clubs.

Perhaps they ought not be allowed to play rugby. After all, think of all they haven't contributed in over 100 years as a club without juniors.
Interesting that the behaviour for which Uni is bagged regularly here is conveniently overlooked at other clubs, I guess because they have the trump card of "Junior Development". When I was young it was Randwick et al. Yawn.

 

[gone]

The day that Uni establish a junior club, field their own teams from ages 7-16 is the day you can say that Uni develop junior rugby.
They are nothing less than pirates (apologies to Wests) raiding the coffers of more diligent clubs.

Perhaps they ought not be allowed to play rugby. After all, think of all they haven't contributed in over 100 years as a club without juniors.
Interesting that the behaviour for which Uni is bagged regularly here is conveniently overlooked at other clubs, I guess because they have the trump card of "Junior Development". When I was young it was Randwick et al. Yawn.

It is going on with other clubs (Randwick, Easts to name a few).

I have to point the finger at Gordon too. When I first became involved with Gordon 5 years ago we were rubbish but due to spending a bit of cash and stealing half of the parramatta team and a few Warringah players (plus a very good colts system) we have become a very competitive club. Unfortunately the club is now in financial troubles and has started to lose some of its top players, this will continue over the next few years and sadly I think we will slip down towards the bottom half of the table. It's jus the way the world works - the top of the table is set to be dominated by a handful of the richer clubs and the likes of Parramatta and Penrith will remain uncompetitive.

 

[TheRiddler]

Why all the grief? By the time Barnes is able to play for Uni he'll be out with a long term injury anyway

 

[Bruce Ross]

With regard to Berrick Barnes I would just make the point that as a matter of policy Uni does not recruit grade players from outside the Club. In fact he is the first top grade outsider to join the Club since Julian Huxley in 2006. I would be very confident that neither player was paid a dollar to join Uni.

Sorry Bruce but I don’t buy that…

For starters you are forgetting Luke Burgess. From what I’ve heard (and admittedly it is all pure rumour and speculation) Uni approached him and Easts couldn’t match their offering (I have no idea what the offering was). Knowing the pay scale of some of the East’s players I would interested to know how Uni secured his services.

You may know may know better than I do what happened with Burgess (and I may be completely wrong on that matter) but I do know for a fact that Uni did approach a Gordon first grader last offseason and dollars were involved. Gordon was forced to stump up more cash (which they did) or lose the player. Unfortunately situations like this (not only with Uni) have put real pressure on Gordon financially. Given that Gordon is struggling one can only imagine how little hope the Parramatta's of this system have.

No, thatguy, I did not forget Luke Burgess. He was not an outsider, he simply came back to the Club where it all started for him. He started in 3rd Colts at Uni and worked his way up until he was offered a contract with the Brumbies.

I do know better than most people what happened with him. Even when he was playing at Easts he was on a number of occasions given academic advice by me and his old Uni Colts coach when there was no anticipation that he would ever return to Uni. It's called helping a kid on the basis of friendship.

Luke had no inducements to come back to Uni - none, nil, zilch, zero. In 2009 he received nothing; this year he is receiving a genuine academic scholarship for an absurdly small amount.

A similar situation applies with Ben Roberts who played all his Colts football with Uni before going to West Harbour. Last year he came back to Uni and played in the First Grade Premiership team.

 

[gone]

With regard to Berrick Barnes I would just make the point that as a matter of policy Uni does not recruit grade players from outside the Club. In fact he is the first top grade outsider to join the Club since Julian Huxley in 2006. I would be very confident that neither player was paid a dollar to join Uni.

Sorry Bruce but I don’t buy that…

For starters you are forgetting Luke Burgess. From what I’ve heard (and admittedly it is all pure rumour and speculation) Uni approached him and Easts couldn’t match their offering (I have no idea what the offering was). Knowing the pay scale of some of the East’s players I would interested to know how Uni secured his services.

You may know may know better than I do what happened with Burgess (and I may be completely wrong on that matter) but I do know for a fact that Uni did approach a Gordon first grader last offseason and dollars were involved. Gordon was forced to stump up more cash (which they did) or lose the player. Unfortunately situations like this (not only with Uni) have put real pressure on Gordon financially. Given that Gordon is struggling one can only imagine how little hope the Parramatta's of this system have.

No, thatguy, I did not forget Luke Burgess. He was not an outsider, he simply came back to the Club where it all started for him. He started in 3rd Colts at Uni and worked his way up until he was offered a contract with the Brumbies.

I do know better than most people what happened with him. Even when he was playing at Easts he was on a number of occasions given academic advice by me and his old Uni Colts coach when there was no anticipation that he would ever return to Uni. It's called helping a kid on the basis of friendship.

Luke had no inducements to come back to Uni - none, nil, zilch, zero. In 2009 he received nothing; this year he is receiving a genuine academic scholarship for an absurdly small amount.

A similar situation applies with Ben Roberts who played all his Colts football with Uni before going to West Harbour. Last year he came back to Uni and played in the First Grade Premiership team.

Fair enough I will concede you know more on that regard although the people I’ve talked to at Easts would probably not share your views (they feel he was flat out poached) and surely playing for another first grade team would mean you are an “outsider” regardless of where he started but that is beside the point.

I am very surprised (however I will take your word for it) that you say that he had no inducements to come back, given what Easts have paid for other players and how desperate at the time they were to hang onto him.

Anyway my point was that your previous insinuation that Uni does not "as a matter of policy does not recruit grade players from outside the Club" is untrue. I have witnessed this through a large cash offer to a Gordon player last offseason (and this particular player has never played for uni or even studied at uni, in fact the only time he probably has ever stepped foot in Uni is to play against them).

The top teams in the club competition all do recruit or attempt to recruit is various degrees. Randwick, Easts, Manly, Eastwood and Gordon (especially over the last 3 years) all do it and Sydney Uni is no exception. Your continuous assertions that Sydney Uni is squeaky clean are tiresome; I am not saying they are any worse that the other clubs but they are certainly not innocent. At the top end it is a semi professional competition, clubs need to actively recruit to stay competitive.

The top 6 or 7 clubs are ensuring they remain powerful by destroying the less wealthy teams. The current competition structure ensures that pretty soon there will be no rugby west of Concord.

Where Sydney Uni has a massive advantage over the competition is in colts recruitment. Other clubs simply cannot pay colts players at all whereas Sydney Uni have the advantage of being able to offer scholarships to the best players coming out of school. This is led to Uni’s colts teams being nearly untouchable in recent years. That has very little to do with their development program and is all to do with recruitment and having a huge competitive advantage on the other clubs.

So after that little rant I guess my point is it is disappointing to see things like what has happened with Campo leaving Parra in the lurch as Uni and other teams continue to kill off rugby in the weaker areas. The NSWRU need to address this and provide a basis for which Parramatta can realistically compete against University and the like. Failing that they need a two tier competition.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

The day that Uni establish a junior club, field their own teams from ages 7-16 is the day you can say that Uni develop junior rugby.
They are nothing less than pirates (apologies to Wests) raiding the coffers of more diligent clubs.

Perhaps they ought not be allowed to play rugby. After all, think of all they haven't contributed in over 100 years as a club without juniors.
Interesting that the behaviour for which Uni is bagged regularly here is conveniently overlooked at other clubs, I guess because they have the trump card of "Junior Development". When I was young it was Randwick et al. Yawn.

Oh I'm sorry - I forgot that because they are the oldest club and had done great things in the past it is now allowable to rape and pillage the junior talent.
In the past Uni did very well with what they had.
Now they want it all and other clubs are doing the development for no return.
As I said earlier - how about Uni establist a junior club - ages 7 to 16, nurture their own talent and then if they want give them scholarships instead of thieving from those with the foresight and desire to actually develop young talent.

 

[topo]

With regard to Berrick Barnes I would just make the point that as a matter of policy Uni does not recruit grade players from outside the Club. In fact he is the first top grade outsider to join the Club since Julian Huxley in 2006. I would be very confident that neither player was paid a dollar to join Uni.

Sorry Bruce but I don’t buy that…

For starters you are forgetting Luke Burgess. From what I’ve heard (and admittedly it is all pure rumour and speculation) Uni approached him and Easts couldn’t match their offering (I have no idea what the offering was). Knowing the pay scale of some of the East’s players I would interested to know how Uni secured his services.

You may know may know better than I do what happened with Burgess (and I may be completely wrong on that matter) but I do know for a fact that Uni did approach a Gordon first grader last offseason and dollars were involved. Gordon was forced to stump up more cash (which they did) or lose the player. Unfortunately situations like this (not only with Uni) have put real pressure on Gordon financially. Given that Gordon is struggling one can only imagine how little hope the Parramatta's of this system have.

I'm trying to work out which Gordon player Uni would possibly consider paying money for..................
Go Broadway Bruce. My experience of Uni rugby backs what you say.

 

[Bruce Ross]

With regard to Berrick Barnes I would just make the point that as a matter of policy Uni does not recruit grade players from outside the Club. In fact he is the first top grade outsider to join the Club since Julian Huxley in 2006. I would be very confident that neither player was paid a dollar to join Uni.

Sorry Bruce but I don’t buy that…

For starters you are forgetting Luke Burgess. From what I’ve heard (and admittedly it is all pure rumour and speculation) Uni approached him and Easts couldn’t match their offering (I have no idea what the offering was). Knowing the pay scale of some of the East’s players I would interested to know how Uni secured his services.

You may know may know better than I do what happened with Burgess (and I may be completely wrong on that matter) but I do know for a fact that Uni did approach a Gordon first grader last offseason and dollars were involved. Gordon was forced to stump up more cash (which they did) or lose the player. Unfortunately situations like this (not only with Uni) have put real pressure on Gordon financially. Given that Gordon is struggling one can only imagine how little hope the Parramatta's of this system have.

I'm trying to work out which Gordon player Uni would possibly consider paying money for..................
Go Broadway Bruce. My experience of Uni rugby backs what you say.

I've been scratching my head about that one too, topo, trying to work out which position Uni was so desperately short in that they deliberately triggered a bidding war with Gordon. In doing so they would run the risk of the Club's existing players starting to put their hands up to be paid.

I have lost track of the number of times people, including club presidents, have told me they "know for a fact" that Uni throws massive amounts at players. No evidence is ever produced, but nothing I say can ever dissuade them. They "know for a fact".

From time to time, not often, Uni loses players to other clubs. Surely it should be possible to persuade at least one of them to go public and spill the beans on the scandalous situation at Uni. But for some reason they all choose to keep schtum.

Meanwhile the annual merry-go-round of players going from club to club goes on with the Uni bastards scarcely figuring in it.

 

[Pfitzy]

Let's not split hairs gents: there is "pay" and then there's "pay". It all adds up to "benefit"

 

[Biffo]

I do not know whether Sydney Uni pays its players or does not. I don't care either way. However, I do care that the accusers ... of Uni paying ... should produce hard evidence or shut up.

"I know for a fact" and "everybody knows" are not evidence of fact.

 

[spectator]

Hear, hear Biffo!

I don't have a particular interest in this argument, but all of the anecdotal crap that has been flying around has prompted me.

I'm pissed (as in drunk) but I do applaud Bruces' very public contribution to this forum. Unlike most of us, he doesn"t hide behind an alias.

Personally though, I think Uni is gutting NSW rugby.

 

[Biffo]

I'm pissed (as in drunk)

Not as much as I am :lmao:

 

[Epi]

I do not know whether Sydney Uni pays its players or does not. I don't care either way. However, I do care that the accusers ... of Uni paying ... should produce hard evidence or shut up.

"I know for a fact" and "everybody knows" are not evidence of fact.

I know for a fact that uni has contracted Tom Carter to $1500 per pass. So far they haven't had to spend a cent...

 

[spectator]

Excellent, some humour. :yay

 

[gone]

I've been scratching my head about that one too, topo, trying to work out which position Uni was so desperately short in that they deliberately triggered a bidding war with Gordon. In doing so they would run the risk of the Club's existing players starting to put their hands up to be paid.

I am going to let this go as obviously I can't produce any evidence. I did see evidence of the said offer but this is obviously still with the player (if he has held onto it). If you were genuinely interested in who the player was I'm happy to PM you the details but I don't think its appropriate to post it here.

My final comment on this thread is I just can't believe that above comment Bruce. As the Academic Counsellor for the rugby club I don't know (and make no assumptions about) how involved you are with player recruitment and retention but given that I know what goes on at other clubs (in particular Gordon and I can provide plenty evidence of it from there) I can't believe Uni don't provide any compensation for their players (expecially the non-super 14 players) whether through paying them directly or through 3rd parties. Unfortunately though I have no proof so I'll shut up now.

 

[Ash]

I'll just say this: it would be incredibly naive to assume that any of the top Sydney premiership clubs don't arrange for many of their top (non-S14) players to receive money or benefits in some way. Whether they think of it as "paying" or not, let them mince terminology.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Could I just make a comment here in the spirit of friendship?

Firstly, I would make the point that I do not speak on behalf of the rugby club at Sydney Uni. I am President of their parent body, Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness. Given that I post under my own name and make no secret of my affiliations, whenever I post not just my credibility but that of my organisation is under scrutiny. As a result I try to ensure that what I write is accurate and fair. If people do not accept that, it does not really concern me.

With regard to other clubs, I do not believe it is healthy for one or two clubs to be very strong and others in danger of folding. I am personally very concerned at the plight of clubs such as Penrith and Parramatta, and I have never said or done anything that is inconsistent with that but rather have spoken out and written in support of such clubs. But I do not believe that anything positive is achieved by deliberately weakening the high performing clubs. Apart from anything else it is a misdirection of energy. What benefits have flowed from the introduction of the points system? Has it made the top clubs materially weaker? More importantly, has it made the weak clubs stronger? But if the majority of clubs choose to persevere with such a system, the predictable outcome is that clubs like Uni will suffer minor inconvenience but still be able to comply with its regulations and restrictions.

To some extent the playing field in Sydney rugby has been levelled as the result of a decision taken by Uni's 2005 Head Coach, Steve Surridge. He decreed that the Club would not recruit established grade players from other clubs. That has since been the Club's policy, with Julian Huxley and Berrick Barnes the only exceptions I can think of. Wallaby players who have approached the Club have been turned away. What this effectively means is that Uni does not compete in the market for established grade players, even to retain its own players. But some people still find it impossible to accept that as fact.

Rule 1 in warfare is to know your enemy. Critics continue to insist that the University of Sydney lowers its academic standards to help the Rugby Club recruit; that the Club pays very large scholarships that other clubs could not possibly match; that Uni must be paying its players in some form or other; and that Uni puts no resources into junior rugby. If these accusations are true then I for one am a liar and abundant evidence of that could be found in various threads on this forum where I have commented.

But the other possibility is that the reasons for the Club's success might be found elsewhere. Principal among these might be the fact that at Uni there is now a culture of very serious training. The majority of the Club train eleven months of the year, doing multiple sessions per week, including heavy weights sessions right throughout the playing season.

I know that some clubs are proceeding along similar lines. The reality is that a lot of players choose to play Premiership rather than Subbies because they are aspirational, with respect to both their sport and also their post-sport careers. Club rugby generally can assist people to fulfill these ambitions.

 

[Scotty]

Interesting first post. How about telling us who you are?

There is a lot of tall poppy talk on this thread. Uni do appear at an advantage, primarily because they are a Uni, well good on them. Randwick have and had an advantage, maybe due to being at the beach, but also because they developed such a strong team that others would want to come and play for them. These clubs get the most spite from outsiders primarily because of jealousy, as I said tall poppy syndrome. It seems this country was based on it, and at times it annoys the shit out of me.

Shouldn't the other clubs be looking at ways they can become the next Randwick, or the next Uni? It all takes time of course, dedication and some money, but all great sporting teams and indeed businesses have that in common.