Wales v Wallabies, Cardiff, Nov 30 2013

[Mr Doug]

If Alexander is seen as being a liability, is it possible (under IRB rules) to have TPN on the bench as the "4th Prop", and S Finger as reserve hooker?

 

[Braveheart81]

If Alexander is seen as being a liability, is it possible (under IRB rules) to have TPN on the bench as the "4th Prop", and S Finger as reserve hooker?

Not unless you want to play TPN at prop.

 

[BDA]

Why choose Harris at inside centre over Lilo?

Lilo did quite a good job for us at 12 earlier this year. Yes he had a shocker with the boot on the weekend, but it happens to the best of them. Also he's not a natural 13 so it's a bit hard to hold his performance against him.

Harris on the other hand failed to impress at 12. He's a utility back at best (at this stage of his career) and doesn't offer the same attacking threat as lilo does.

Cooper seems to play better with a 12 that also likes to direct the play at times. It's an easy choice.

 

[Mr Doug]

I'm sure TPN has filled that position at some stage of his career. I've played prop in an 'emergency', and I was a second rower, but of course that wasn't against Wales!!

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm sure TPN has filled that position at some stage of his career. I've played prop in an 'emergency', and I was a second rower, but of course that wasn't against Wales!!

Why would you though?

You're not going to drop Alexander because he's not the greatest scrummager to play a hooker at prop. That makes no sense.

 

[RedsHappy]

Interesting dialogue re Lilo's poor kicking v Scotland and who should kick for the team come Wales.

Of course a plus of the Wallabies team at last being able to score more than one try per match is that our historically erratic kicking record is marginally less problematic in the winning of games.

I say 'marginally'. No one can or should blame a loose playing surface for Lilo's problems. IIRC Lambie kicked all of the Boks four conversions from various angles when the Boks played Scotland on the same surface in the same month.

Tragically for Ireland, it was Sexton's penalty kick miss in the latter stage of Ireland's match vs the ABs that effectively lost that game for them, a game, as one for the history books, they genuinely could have won.

There'll be plenty of times when the same scoring fact is true for the Wallabies, especially if we ever get back to beating or near-beating the teams ranked above us. Almost as true is that regarding the crucial rugby skill of kicking from hand in both running or stationary modes. This form of kicking if excellent and consistently so can just as much potentially decide games as kicking from the tee.

Just as it was going into the 2013 BIL with underdone and under-trained kickers, the underlying issue of course is the ARU's and/or our coaches' lack of comprehension, willingness or funding to hire an exemplary, full-time (or at least full-international season) kicking and catching coach in the mould of Mick Byrne's long engagement in this very role with the ABs.

We will not ever get to championship status without a fully resourced, holistic team skills management system and depth of technical support resources equal to or better than that retained by the very best rugby teams. It just won't happen, and all the star-player praising and selection tinkering and 'culture-building' will not in and of itself make for sustained achievement of the required kind at the highest levels. Those parameters will be necessary, but not sufficient, conditions for real Wallaby success at, say, the next RWC, or in the winning of BCs and TRCs.

 

[Slim 293]

I think the selections should be pretty simple for this week:

1. Slipper
2. Moore
3. Kepu
4. Simmons
5. Horwill
6. Fardy
7. Hooper
8. Mowen
9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Cummins
12. Lilo
13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Tomane
15. Folau

 

[Ash]

Like that team, BH. Not sure if I'd take Gill or McCalman as the bench forward, though.

 

[Mr Doug]

Braveheart81, I will explain, slowly for you. Frankly I'm happy with Benny being on the bench, however, many self-proclaimed experts on this forum are of an opposing view. My comment was not to suggest TPN played prop, just that by being on the bench as a 'reserve prop', could he fulfil the IRB 4th prop requirement? TPN can replace Steve Moore after 50 or 60, and unless we lose two props he can stay there.
I guess I'm questioning the 'flexibility' of the IRB 4th prop ruling, which obviously, like me , you don't know. I'm sure someone out there will be able to help.

 

[Forcefield]

Hooper has had more yellow's this year... is this a basis for dropping him to? To'omua is already home & Robinson or Kepu to start, Alexander can carry oranges.

Yeah maybe. But I think it is a different story for 7s. Also, Simmons is critical to the Wallabies world cup campaign. Hooper is a fantastic player but Pocock and Gill could easily take his place. You'd lose a bit in attack but make gains elsewhere. We have no choices where Simmons is concerned. We want him to be the best player he can be.

Simmons had a brain-fart,he often does. But that aside his contribution was very good. Timani is a natural replacement for Horwill, not Simmons. Our lineout loses a lot with him not there.

Kepu was a very active defender, particularly in the first half. He's well in front of Alexander for scrummaging and although Alexander made some good hits when he came on I was happy with Kepu's field performance.

See I think you've spelled out my point. Why wouldn't you want to change that? My way of doing that would be to drop him for a game. If those punches had connected to the face, it could have been a red. I don't know about anyone else but I feel proud that the Wallabies players rarely get up to weak ass shit like punching, headbutts, eye-gouging, etc.

I reckon Kepu's early penalties set a tone for the game. Maybe if we'd had more scrums (how many actually finished without a short-arm?), his value would have been more prominent.

 

[Braveheart81]

Braveheart81, I will explain, slowly for you. Frankly I'm happy with Benny being on the bench, however, many self-proclaimed experts on this forum are of an opposing view. My comment was not to suggest TPN played prop, just that by being on the bench as a 'reserve prop', could he fulfil the IRB 4th prop requirement? TPN can replace Steve Moore after 50 or 60, and unless we lose two props he can stay there.
I guess I'm questioning the 'flexibility' of the IRB 4th prop ruling, which obviously, like me , you don't know. I'm sure someone out there will be able to help.

Thanks for the condescending tone. Much appreciated.

The answer is yes, you can play TPN on the bench as the fourth prop but if the situation requires it, you have to bring him on the field to play prop and still have contested scrums. You would not be able to bring your other replaced prop back onto the field before hand. You have to have an entire front row on the bench. Two props and a hooker. You can't pick one player and say they're both a reserve prop and hooker.

Why on earth would you pick a hooker on the bench as a prop (making it two hookers in total on the bench) even if you had no intention of playing him at prop?

So basically you are suggesting that Fainga'a is on the bench as the third hooker with no intention of him being used just so Alexander isn't on the bench. It makes absolutely no sense.

I agree that plenty of people have called for Alexander to be dropped on many occasions but I can't imagine a single one of those people would suggest picking a hooker in his place. That would be ludicrous.

 

[KOB1987]

Why choose Harris at inside centre over Lilo?

Because he played much better than Lilo on Saturday, he is the incumbent, and he knows the Welsh well from last year's series. Also, as I said on the post game thread, Lilo will be more beneficial to the team from the bench, as cover for 10 & 12, and/or as an impact player in the second half.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Perhaps where @Mr Doug is coming from is along the lines of the Saffer "experiment" if that is the correct word for Smit and Ralepele, who have at various times played both Hooker and Prop.

That being said the Team Rehab selectors would have to have hit the squad pretty hard for a coach to use a generalist fatty to cover both hooker and prop from the bench, rather than two specialists. The recnt IRB concession to allow the squad to be 23 rather than 22 has sort of removed the potential benefits that a Hooker who could Prop at a pinch (or vice versa) gave a coach.

 

[scaraby]

Gee Harris won a few GAGRS over in a week.
Thought it was a strange but well explained selection last week but if he picks Harris over Lilo this week then I might need a REALLY good explaination.

Think the side everyones picked this week above with Lilo and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in the centres is a certainty. Props are still up for debate. I would go 1. Slipper
2. Moore 3. Kepu with Fatcat and Benny on bench but Link likes Benny so no shock there.
Lilo by the way has had 1 bad kicking performance and Quaides been good as well so no need for MH on that front.
Surprised no one has moved Izzy again....are we finally now in agreement??

 

[BDA]

Because he played much better than Lilo on Saturday, he is the incumbent, and he knows the Welsh well from last year's series. Also, as I said on the post game thread, Lilo will be more beneficial to the team from the bench, as cover for 10 & 12, and/or as an impact player in the second half.

With respect, I disagree with most of that paragraph. If I could perhaps address each of your assertions separately.

1. Because he played much better than Lilo on Saturday

Did he play much better? Kicking aside, Lilo didn't seem to see much ball. I don't remember Harris doing that much either, save for making more tackles but the scots rarely went wide. Lilo was the one taking one for the team by playing out of position in an unfamiliar role at 13, and Harris really created nothing for the players outside of him. Seriously we might as well go back to Pat McCabe is you think Harris was effective on Saturday.

2. He is the incumbent.

What? Lilo played inside centre for the Lions series and the start of the Rugby Championship. To'omua only came in when Lilo was injured. To'omua is now the incumbent 12 (when fit). In his absence I'd say Lilo would have a better claim to being the incumbent 12.

3. He knows the Welsh well from last year's series

From memory Harris play less than 30 minutes of rugby in that series. He was on the bench for the first two games, and if I recall correctly was left out of the team for the third test. From the best of memory we also sat on the bench in the spring tour game against Wales last year, and didn't get a run. Lilo played in all three Lions tests this year (albeit the first one for about 30 second) which consisted of predominantly welsh players, playing under Warren Gatland's game plan.

4. Lilo will be more beneficial to the team from the bench

The fact that Lilo can cover flyhalf and Harris cant doesn't mean that Lilo is better off on the bench. Harris is also a ulility and has nearly always been used at test level as bench cover. From my point of view he is a decent bench option (as he can kick and cover a few positions) but he doesn't stand out in any position, including 12. Lilo is a 10 or 12 and has shown on many occasion he can be quite dynamic in either position.

Honestly if you like the look of Harris at 12, we should be recalling guys like Rob Horne and Pat McCabe who both offer more at 12 than Harris.

 

[vidiot]

Lilo is a much better Harris than Harris, but he (Lilo) seems to be off the pace.

Maybe you're right and he just struggled in the vacuum so many Aus outside centres find themselves in or may be his ankle is knocking him around.

I'd still rather see Lilo at 12 but then I'm not seeing how they train.

I like the way McCabe and Horne run the ball but Harris at least has the pretence of distributing and general play kicking in his game.

 

[KOB1987]

By incumbent I was only meaning because he played there on the weekend. I rate Lilo as a player and it won't worry me if he is picked there, but I think Harris will be picked there this weekend. I'm not suggesting he should stay there beyond that, just for this final game of the tour.

 

[Lindommer]

My team:

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Kepu
4. Horwill
5. Simmons
6. Fardy
7. Hooper
8. Mowen
9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Cummins
12. Leali'ifano
13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Tomane
15. Folau

16. TPN
17. Slipper
18. Alexander
19. Douglas
20. Gill/McCalman
21. White/Phipps
22. CFS
23. Foley

The Gill/McCalman and White/Phipps conundrums to be solved by their respective efforts on the training paddock allied with Link's tactics for this test. Foley to cover 10/12/15. PLEASE don't put Timani on the bench, he's buggering off, give Douglas the game time.

I sincerely hope this isn't a match too far for the likes of Moore, Simmons, Horwill and Genia.

 

[Ash]

I suspect that Lilo is hampered by his ankle, his pace seems to be very lacking on what it was previously and his step / swerve seems to be missing.

In hindsight it might have been better to leave Lilo at home to get his ankle op and instead have taken Betham on tour. This would have given Lilo a chance at making the start of the Super XV season next year and have given Lilo more time to get back to the level we know he can play at by the time of the inbound tests in 2014.

Then again, hindsight is a woderful thing.

 

[Bowside]

I know we don't really have other options but I'd baulk at moving AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) back to centre - the backline has been operating so much better with him on the wing.

I'd pick Harris, but that's partly because I want to see Lilo come on and play flyhalf for the last 20 minutes