Wallabies 2020

[Derpus]

My opposition to Will Skelton is that more then any of the other players, he has had a number of opportunities to return to Australia and play for the Wallabies, the most significant were prolonged negotiations prior to the 2019 RWC where he offered the opportunity to come back and play for Australia at the RWC, but he prioritised the money of Saracens over the opportunity to represent his country at the RWC.

Despite the lack of depth at lock, i don’t think that’s the kind of attitude to be rewarded.

We couldn't afford him? he was willing to come back. I believe he had talks with the Tahs and RA and they decided they couldn't match his salary.

I don't get why it's assumed people should be willing to take a massive pay cut just to play for the Wallabies. Plus Europe has clearly been very good for him.

 

[KOB1987]

My opposition to Will Skelton is that more then any of the other players, he has had a number of opportunities to return to Australia and play for the Wallabies, the most significant were prolonged negotiations prior to the 2019 RWC where he offered the opportunity to come back and play for Australia at the RWC, but he prioritised the money of Saracens over the opportunity to represent his country at the RWC.

Despite the lack of depth at lock, i don’t think that’s the kind of attitude to be rewarded.

I think you could use some sort of anti-patriotism argument for any of the likely candidates. In Skelton’s case it wasn’t just preferring Saracens over the RWC, he would have had to commit to returning to a super franchise, so it was a life decision. The bottom line is we don’t really know the reasons these players make these decisions, earnings capacity from a short and finite career is obviously a major driver, but there will always be other considerations for all of them.

I do hope they play these two cards wisely though, not just to get a band aid for the upcoming Bledisloes.

 

[Proud Pig]

I personally would not bring in anyone outside of the Australian based players this year. I understand when people say you shouldn't use test matches to develop players. However, you have to develop them sometime and preferably before the next WC. Why not reward the guys that stayed here such as Philip and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto). I think starting with those two at lock we will lose nothing. Maybe they are young but they are not as young as Topou, HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) or Jordan Pataia and there seems to be fairly consistent support for them all being in the squad.

We lose players to France and Japan because of the cash and the main draw to staying in Australia is to fight for a place with the Wallabies. If we take that away by parachuting in players like Skelton, who jumped for the dough, then why would guys like LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) and Philip stay. The Giteau law was brought in to allow guys who had paid their dues to get that big payday overseas.
I think if we are to ease the Giteau laws to allow a couple of guys who didn't qualify to play, then go the whole hog say everyone is eligible to play for the Wobs regardless of where they are playing. It will hurt the quality of the Australian comp but it may also save a huge amount of cash, so swings and roundabouts.

There is a bit of a perception at times it seems that just because someone is playing well overseas they must be better than the guys back here. The only thing you can definitively say about the guys playing France is that they are getting paid more. (oh and of course that they are learning how to say "I surrender, I surrender" in a ridiculous accent).

As an aside, Latu concerns me greatly, he has always been a "card just waiting to happen and a couple of extra penalties a game" kind of player.

 

[Adam84]

I don't get why it's assumed people should be willing to take a massive pay cut just to play for the Wallabies. Plus Europe has clearly been very good for him.

Every other player in Australian Rugby makes a financial sacrifice that Skelton wasn’t willing to make.

 

[TSR]

There has to be balance. Including some of the younger brigade is a must IMO, but if we don’t bring any experience back then our cupboard is very bare. Guys like Hosea and Blyth will benefit far more from competing in a team environment with Arnold and Skelton then they will from getting an inside running because Arnold & Skelton aren’t around. And it’s not just about the locks. If we are going to blood a player like Tate McDermott, then we want him to play behind the best forward pack possible and have a guy like JOC (James O'Connor) or To'omua at 10 to guide him around. There is a large and very talented group of young guys coming through who will all get opportunities over the next 2 yrs - but I’d rather not have 3-4 of them all out there at the one time at this stage.

 

[upthereds#!]

You're assuming every player in Australia could and would be offered a higher amount then their existing salaries overseas. This is very much not the case.

 

[Derpus]

Every other player in Australian Rugby makes a financial sacrifice that Skelton wasn’t willing to make.

That's not really true. The young locks aren't worth what Skelton is - yet. And when they are, a lot of them will probably leave.

People take the best pay they can get, particularly in a short career.

 

[KOB1987]

Every other player in Australian Rugby makes a financial sacrifice that Skelton wasn’t willing to make.

Isn’t that the case with every other player that this rule is designed to target?

 

[Adam84]

There has to be balance though. Including some of the younger brigade is a must IMO, but if we don’t bring any experience back then our cupboard is very bare. Guys like Hosea and Blyth will benefit far more from competing in a team environment with Arnold and Skelton then they will from getting an inside running because Arnold & Skelton aren’t around. And it’s not just about the locks. If we are going to blood a player like Tate McDermott, then we want him to play behind the best forward pack possible and have a guy like JOC (James O'Connor) or To'omua at 10 to guide him around. There is a large and very talented group of young guys coming through who will all get opportunities over the next 2 yrs - but I’d rather not have 3-4 of them all out there at the one time at this stage.

I agree, and in this circumstance if you’re going to bring a lock back in then i think it should be someone like Arnold who IMO has given more back to Australian rugby over the past 5 years.

 

[Adam84]

That's not really true. The young locks aren't worth what Skelton is - yet. And when they are, a lot of them will probably leave.

People take the best pay they can get, particularly in a short career.

So if you’re worth $1million/year and accept a contract worth $750k/year, and I’m worth $100k/year and accept a contract with $75k/year, are you making the greater sacrifice?

There are plenty of players in Australian Rugby right now who have not taking the best pay they can get because they wanted to play in Australia and represent the Wallabies.

 

[KOB1987]

So if you’re worth $1million/year and accept a contract worth $750k/year, and I’m worth $100k/year and accept a contract with $75k/year, are you making the greater sacrifice?

There are plenty of players in Australian Rugby right now who have not taking the best pay they can get because they wanted to play in Australia and represent the Wallabies.

I’m still confused about why you are singling Skelton out as the villain under this scenario. Or are you saying we don’t utilise the new tweak at all?

 

[molman]

I personally would not bring in anyone outside of the Australian based players this year.

I'm assuming Rennie 'n co have identified specific areas of weakness. As much as I think people would like to have them (the coaching group) just use it to give the young players and the fresh blood/new faces a go, the reality is that he wants to win. RA needs some wins. International games are not the place to be testing out players who really might not have shown enough, be quiet ready, especially when you look at the standard of the competition. I mean seriously those North and South NZ teams could likely both give any Wallabies a hard time, nevermind the combined All Blacks. Anything that injects needed experience, skills, talent whilst the next generation are still finding their feet I don't think is a bad thing. Look how far some of the players have come just in this year alone. Imagine them with another year or two of Super Rugby.

I also think there will be lot of opportunities for players / B squads to potentially be involved in warm up games for some of the team/countries etc..

 

[molman]

Absolutely nothing pisses me off more than opinions on Skelton from people who didn't watch him play for the Saracens. Specifically the Champions Cup semi and final.

He's under 130kgs now. Not withstanding he was still a Test player when he left Aus - he's almost completely different now.

Much evolved player since his move abroad. Little disappointing the local coaches didn't unlock his full potential whilst here.

 

[qwerty51]

You’d assume Rennie was heavily consulted on this and therefore already has specific guys in mind and spoken to them. I doubt they just changed the rule and Rennie will be all yeah nah don’t want anyone. And they’re going to be in the 23.

 

[Brumby Runner]

All good points TSR.

IMO Ulese is yet to deliver on the hype. I had high hopes for FF (Folau Fainga'a) but he too hasn't reached the level I thought he would have by now.

Latu was fantastic year. strong set piece, skillful and extremely dynamic. Such a shame to lose him as he comes good particularly given his age. I cannot recall the last time a hooker in Gold consistently played that well.

Absolutely understand the skepticism around how he has been playing. Looks like he only has 3 games for Stade, i believe the season has been pushed back further due to a bunch of covid cases. You are right, he could be a mess right now for all we know. Playing in France does have a reputation for susceptible players losing their way a bit.

The throwing by everyone this year has been atrocious. I cannot find the exact stats anywhere though. I have a feeling that rookie from the tahs may have the best throwing stats?

I would like him to come back to Oz, wish someone would get in his ear and steer him in the "right" direction. Reckon Thorne would get him to where he needs to be.

Your last point if fair for many but in Lati's case he was, by far, the best Hooker in Oz before he left.

I don't think they will bring him back partly because it might prove too difficult. Could be the case with Arnold/Skelton as well.

I think Samu is a lock in as he has been in Brisbane for a while and the Japan season is not happening. Others from Japan are McMahon, Gill, Lilo, Harris. I suspect they are all in Oz or holidaying somewhere.

Also I forgot about Morahan. He has been lighting up for the Bristol Bears the past few years. Would push for a start at 15 or a wing IMO. Also good bench option being able to cover 11/13/14/15

Kerevi to me looks like he needs to be playing almost continuously to retain fitness and form. If he's been sitting out Covid in Brisbane as reported, then I would be very nervous about including him.

Neither Of McMahon nor Gill are in positions where we need to bring in extra expertise.

CLL, I'm afraid, is beyond his use by date, and would not offer more at 10 than we have in JOC (James O'Connor) or To'omua.

Harris and Morahan - meh. Hardly up to standard when the Wallabies were at their lowest ebb. Just not test players.

I will be extremely surprised and disappointed if any of these nominated players are in Rennie's sights.

 

[Rebels3]

I think we will see Kerevi and a lock (Rodda/Skelton/Arnold). Depending fitness I think he will be happy with Simmons, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) and Philip as 3 of his 4 options, with one person in to fill the gap. Kerevi to come in as beyond To'omua and JOC (James O'Connor) there is a big gap to the next best 12 option. Kerevi is also potentially the worlds best 12, so I see Rennie wanting you try his hand at making that happen. Aus genuinely lacks players that could be in the conversation. Latu over the other hookers I can’t see, he might be currently a better player than the options available but the talent difference to the chasing options is small. The upgrade isn’t worth the waste of a spot that could be filled by others.

 

[Brumby Runner]

While I can see Rob Simmons being in the squad of 46 players, I will be extremely disappointed if he makes the national 23 ever again.What the Wallabies need, and especially against the likes of NZ, SA and England, is a team of fighters who will make their presence felt with hurt in their tackles or their ball running. Simmons has never been that player.

 

[Rebels3]

Apparently Australia A fixtures been lined up to be played against Argentina. Would love to see who would make that team

 

[Adam84]

I’m still confused about why you are singling Skelton out as the villain under this scenario. Or are you saying we don’t utilise the new tweak at all?

I don't think i'm singling him out as a villain, i just don't think his decision to prioritise European contracts should be rewarded, he differs from the others as he is on his 3 or 4th contract and has had a number of opportunities and plenty of demand to return home. I don't think that's the kind of player that should be rewarded or brought back into the Wallaby set-up.

Personally I would prefer the likes of Arnold be brought back, at least he has contributed to Australian Rugby in recent years.

 

[KOB1987]

I don't think i'm singling him out as a villain, i just don't think his decision to prioritise European contracts should be rewarded, he differs from the others as he is on his 3 or 4th contract and has had a number of opportunities and plenty of demand to return home. I don't think that's the kind of player that should be rewarded or brought back into the Wallaby set-up.

Personally I would prefer the likes of Arnold be brought back, at least he has contributed to Australian Rugby in recent years.

Ok I get where you are coming from, but all players have the opportunity to come back whenever they want, very few if any do so at their prime. Now is the right time to get him back, he’s got a wealth of experience and is at his prime, and is 27.