Wallabies v All Blacks Sydney

[Jnor]

So he's good on defence\turnovers, isn't that a tad one-dimensional? Phil Waugh does that too. If you want to see all round, watch some tapes of George Smith running around. At his best he was more skillful than any other 7, McCaw included. McCaw just has oodles of determination and leadership.
I rate Pocock as a good 7 who's outstanding @ turnovers but unlike you guys I don't cream my pants over him.

Could well be an SA vs France final. I'm not dumb enough to claim the AB's will win the RWC.

The fact that Bam is good at defence and turnovers according to you would seem to be more than one dimensional to me. And I do rate him with ball in hand as well, which you seem to have missed. I think Smith and McCaw all up are/were about equal, McCaw certainly has the leadership aspect over him, and I'd say that lets him pull away a bit.

Anyway, we disagree. Time will eventually tell and I think Pocock will be seen as one of the better flankers to have run around in gold or any colour barring serious injuries or other mishaps. You don't and I can live with that.

 

[Scotty]

Agree that "not bad" shouldn't guarantee selection next game. At the same time I think that selections should be based on players playing better than the guy in a position for a change to be warranted. For example, I think JOC (James O'Connor) has done a pretty fair job on the wing given he's been playing out of position but Turner's performance was better than JOC (James O'Connor) and I think he deserves to be promoted in place of JOC (James O'Connor) when Mitchell comes back.

I don't think Fainga'a has done anything in the test matches (albeit with very little game time) to warrant going ahead of Giteau.

JOC (James O'Connor) and Barnes have showed some form but have they outplayed Giteau? JOC (James O'Connor) - think we need to see him play at 12 on tour to answer this but not against the AB's in the next game. Barnes - could mount a case that he has and I wouldn't argue with him going to 12 but I doubt Robbie will make this move for the next game against the AB's in Hong Kong.

Hard to outplay the encumbent when you don't get a chance. I think I am correct in saying that Gits has played in every test this year, albeit not always at 12? You can hardly discount Fa'ainga on about 88 minutes of rugby, nor Barnes on about 5 minutes each game. The fact is that Giteau hasn't been performing well. He has only been average, so it is time to look at options. The other guys might not have the 'runs on the board' at international level that Giteau does, but they do at S14 level, where Barnes, Fa'ainga and JOC (James O'Connor) were all as good or better than Giteau. And all three of those mentioned players have the potential to add something to the Wallabies, but we aren't ever going to know if they can realise this potential if they aren't given a shot.

And also remember that Fa'ainga had to play outside of Giteau (who everyone agrees is not a flyhalf) in his only start so far.

 

[I like to watch]

I'm with big cheeks.
The wobblies have come a long way since the start of the 3N.
we have gone from hoping not be be embaressed by the f/time score, to complaining that the young guys don't know how to close out a game.
Leave the old heads at home for Europe, give as much time as we can to the new gen.
I also agree about not whinging about the ref...........unless it's that oxygen thief Kaplan

 

[Scotty]

While on the subject of shithouse referees, the other thing the old fella used to tell me was that he had never seen a referee change his mind, and regardless of how wrong the decision was. Arguing with him to try and convince him to change his mind was the most counter-productive thing a team or Captain can do.

Pity Rocky and Bam Bam's dad didn't hammer those same points home to them during their formative years.
Clearly obvious that Sir Ruchie's dad did.

Wow, your old fella talks to you? Thats awesome.

 

[Ruggo]

Hard to outplay the encumbent when you don't get a chance. I think I am correct in saying that Gits has played in every test this year, albeit not always at 12? You can hardly discount Fa'ainga on about 88 minutes of rugby, nor Barnes on about 5 minutes each game. The fact is that Giteau hasn't been performing well. He has only been average, so it is time to look at options. The other guys might not have the 'runs on the board' at international level that Giteau does, but they do at S14 level, where Barnes, Fa'ainga and JOC (James O'Connor) were all as good or better than Giteau. And all three of those mentioned players have the potential to add something to the Wallabies, but we aren't ever going to know if they can realise this potential if they aren't given a shot.

And also remember that Fa'ainga had to play outside of Giteau (who everyone agrees is not a flyhalf) in his only start so far.

Working off of Austins theory, Barnes should of replaced Gits after the first England test as Barnes played well in what was one of our most coherent backline performances this year. I am not anti Gits but the bloke is like teflon, nothing sticks.

 

[Scotty]

And on the Rocky and Bambam comment. These two approach the ref very differently. Rocky is aggressive and arguementative, Pocock appears to be calm, and gently questioning. I have no doubt that Bam bam will one day make a much better captain than Rocky currently is.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Pocock will be a sensational captain one day, but now is not the time.

With a sense of perspective on the last twelve months, I can recall thinking after the Perth test last year that we were nowhere. No progress, just treading water. Well a bit's happened since then and now I think we might start going places. I base that on:

1, We have genuine quality in arguably the two most crucial positions on the paddock: openside and 5/8. Those two young guys ought to have opposition teams shitting themselves in the next couple of years.

2, Kurtley appears to have solved the conundrum of fullback and for the moment the position is his. I'm thrilled for the young fella, as I felt before this season that he was drifting, but the move to 15 has revitalised him. He offers a genuine threat from the back now and he's a more mature and level headed bloke to go with it.

3, There are some good young forwards like McCalman, but also Slipper and Saia keeping the pressure on the older blokes to keep performing. A winning team isn't fifteen guys any more, it's more like 25.

4, In spite of losing some close ones, we are actually putting ourselves in a position to win them. We got put away pretty handily in at least four 3N games last year. The Sydney test in 2009 was pretty close and we won in Brizzy, but in none of the others did I think we had much more than an outside chance. This years Sydney test I thought we could go bloody close, but that the tiredness factor would do us in.

5, We have quality players to come back into the team: Horwill, Ioane, Alexander, TPN, Palu.

The important thing now is that we go on the EOYT and put the NH teams to the sword. If we can't do that, then my gut feeling from a year ago would have been correct.

 

[RedsHappy]

Hard to outplay the encumbent when you don't get a chance. I think I am correct in saying that Gits has played in every test this year, albeit not always at 12? You can hardly discount Fa'ainga on about 88 minutes of rugby, nor Barnes on about 5 minutes each game. The fact is that Giteau hasn't been performing well. He has only been average, so it is time to look at options. The other guys might not have the 'runs on the board' at international level that Giteau does, but they do at S14 level, where Barnes, Fa'ainga and JOC (James O'Connor) were all as good or better than Giteau. And all three of those mentioned players have the potential to add something to the Wallabies, but we aren't ever going to know if they can realise this potential if they aren't given a shot.
And also remember that Fa'ainga had to play outside of Giteau (who everyone agrees is not a flyhalf) in his only start so far.

Scotty, I believe your arguments above are entirely the right ones re the matter of Giteau. The issue is essentially a forward-looking one, and there'll no forward-looking growth unless other alternatives at 12 are solidly trialled. I have expressed profound concerns re Giteau for months, so my comments yesterday were not new. Giteau has with boot and with body performed with a costly - and unpredictable - irregularity for at least 2 years. Saying, as some do, 'everything was excellent at ANZ except the kicking (again)', is entirely logical but indefensible if we aspire the return to a _sustained_ No 2 or No 1 world position. Great kicking time in time out is at the heart of time in time out victory-making, it's not some sort of electable option on the exam paper. Just imagine the turbo confidence boost to the team if we'd won on Saturday, we'd be back-to-back, home and away, proved a solid formula to beat the best.

Then I add to this the fact that the coaches have shown no willingness to force any consequences back upon on Giteau, via bench pressure, or enforced rest. Graham's instant, PR-like defence of Giteau as "he'll stay our No1 kicker" just yesterday, said it all. That Giteau needs this type of indulgent, symbolic protection sends entirely poor signals to him, and, worse, to the team. The lack of taking the hard calls re Giteau, plus no kicking coach - yet putting the likes of Baxter and Turner and Weeks aside - is one of my biggest beefs with these coaches. I respect the B Dwyer test: "will player X take you to where you want to go?". I would argue the strong evidence from not only this season, but well prior, is no, Giteau won't. Giteau will hold you where you are, he won't lead the best journey forward. I endorse Gagger's view that the Cooper-JO'C combo is now very credible and will effect a superior risk-reward profile over the next 2 years (and we must look well beyond the RWC). Turner/Mitchell on the wings, with Davies and Ioane and Hynes and McCabe in that mix. Barnes too I still like at 12, but he _must_ be given game time HKG-EOYT, his confidence declined with the move to the Tahs and has not really recovered, his issues are mental IMO. Like new, dedicated Wallaby defence and mental skills coaches, a new full-time kicking coach is essential: we must enter 2011/RWC with at least 3 solid place and drop goal kicking alternatives: KB (Kurtley Beale), JO'C/Barnes, QC (Quade Cooper). And at least half the team (or more) must become good at fast-thinking boot kicks for position - this has not always been a Wallaby strength of the non-specialists and can be coached for improvement.

 

[Lee Grant]

Our forwards are just too soft, every time we get the ABs into a difficult position they revert to driving right through the middle of our forwards and we bottle it.

The same thing happened to the Tahs vs the Highlanders, they confronted the Tahs pigs physically right down the middle and they crumpled.

Correct - we get far too interested in individual players - especially individual backs; always have and probably always will, because it makes the hours go by in a day pleasantly.

We can analyse the Oz players in a Bledisloe match which we lost by one point in Sydney to the cows come home just as we did when we lost the same game last year in Sydney by 1 point also. If we lose in 2011 by one point we will have forgotten the other two and probably talk about Giteau. [Cue]

fatprop is right: our forwards are too soft. They have some wonderful skills sometimes and are getting quite good at some stuff - like offloading and tackling round the legs near the goal line, and sometimes restarts and lineouts are good, sometimes bad, and when everybody is on deck our scrum is decent most of the time.

But they are too soft; too soft in the critical moments when the game is in the balance - and it doesn't signify a lot if they grunt and growl, counter-ruck and clear folks out at other times.

I have no great answers for the problem but we can't rely on waiting to get our good players back because they'll catch the virus too.

We need more rolling of c***s for 80 minutes from all forwards on the park.

If they do it then we can chat about the backs - though we may find, of a sudden, that they don't seem to be having so many problems.

Strange.

 

[GC]

I love this from Spiro, who enjoys displaying his idiocy for all to see, this time (mis)quoting some Roar poster:

The law of averages suggests that the Wallabies are nearer to a win than they were ten Tests ago. But as a Roarer has pointed out, Tests are not like tossing coins in a sequence. Each Test is a discrete match. It stands alone. It does not really have a statistical link with the previous Test.

 

[PaarlBok]

The Wallabies not there yet. Their problem is between the ears. They had this one in the bag and let it slip. They wont get this change again anytime soon.

If there is one team that may beat this All Black team it will be the Bokke if they can get back on form and full of confidense.

 

[Ruggo]

The Wallabies not there yet. Their problem is between the ears. They had this one in the bag and let it slip. They wont get this change again anytime soon.

If there is one team that may beat this All Black team it will be the Bokke if they can get back on form and full of confidense.

I don't know Paarl. We get another crack at them in Hong Kong and we are showing signs of moving up. Bokke need to turn it around and start heading in the other dierction. With an aged side I can see some pain of development years comming their way soon like what we have been through.

 

[PaarlBok]

I don't know Paarl. We get another crack at them in Hong Kong and we are showing signs of moving up. Bokke need to turn it around and start heading in the other dierction. With an aged side I can see some pain of development years comming their way soon like what we have been through.

If you can beat them in Sydney without Carter I cant see you beat them anywhere else.

The Bokke had a disaster year but they have an experiense squad that sure wont be the same as they were this year. Saru is plugging all ends to make sure they will go next year in the WC with all guns blazing. They have been there , done that before and they have this last challenge of try to achieve history by retaining the WC. That will drive them into a different kind of animal comes next year.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Guys like Chis, Benn Robinson, Mumm and Elsom just need to get stuck in and hit their opposition hard

Watched a game a little while ago and whilst he was much maligned as a scrumager, Bill Young did know how to hit a guy at ruck time. The likes of David Wilson and Willie O, Vickerman (when he first hit the scene - he caught some of the soft-itis) knew how to get in there and really put in on the line when the chips were down.

When the pretty boys see how hard the pigs are working and driving tehir opposition back, their confidence grows a leg and they don't want to do stupid stuff, but if its a struggle up front and the forwards are getting done phase after phase then when the backs finally get it they try too much and overplay their hand.

I know its just not forwards playing with toughness, the backs have to as well. Not tough boy crap, but genuine hardness when executing at the ruck. There was a play on Sat night where an AB forward too k the ball off the back of a ruck for a run. many of the forwards had been stuck in the last ruck due to some good D by OZ making us commit more numbers than we probably wanted to. But I don't think I have ever seen so many of our backs run to that breakdown with such speed. At least 2-3 came charging in to try and secure ball. They entered legally - for a change aye Scarfman - and who knows if they all kept their feet, but from an AB fan POV it was great to see that sort of committment and respect for possession.

 

[Gagger]

The Wallabies not there yet. Their problem is between the ears. They had this one in the bag and let it slip. They wont get this change again anytime soon.

If there is one team that may beat this All Black team it will be the Bokke if they can get back on form and full of confidense.

Paarl, you seem to be forgetting where the Mandela plate will be resting this year!

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

A question: has there ever been a time when we weren't told that our pack is soft? All through the time I've been watching and playing this game, I've heard it constantly: those Aussies are flashy in the backs and their forwards are weak rubbish. This isn't a shot at anyone, more an observation that even our great teams seem to carry some sort of stigma about not being hard enough. I guess the NH countries get it in reverse about having no flair, in spite of the fact that many of their good teams over the years have had some terrific backs.

 

[Spewn]

Yes. When David Cody was briefly in the team.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Ah yes, the man sent off in a RWC game Actually, David Codey was a pretty damn good player, especially in the 84 GS team.

 

[Spewn]

I was looking at the programme for the Murrayfield test the other day. A couple of those guys weren't too soft such as Tommy Lawton at hooker.

 

[Hartman]

But they are too soft; too soft in the critical moments when the game is in the balance - and it doesn't signify a lot if they grunt and growl, counter-ruck and clear folks out at other times.

We need more rolling of c***s for 80 minutes from all forwards on the park.

Basically comes back to fitness I think. It's difficult to be 'hard' when you're too tired to wrestle with someone in a ruck.