Wallabies v Argentina @ CommBank Stadium 7.45pm Sat 15/07

[molman]

What do you think of Eddie's decision to leave Dave out there for upwards of 70 minutes, Molman? Did it indicate a lack of confidence in Uelese, perhaps? And if so, why have Uelese in the 23 instead of Faessler who hasn't yet had a run and likely won't against the ABs. Or if he does, he is on a hiding to nothing, would you agree?

Otherwise, I fully support your view of Allan Ala'alatoa. His best game in quite a while.

I found it odd. I have no doubt he'll have his reasons (whether i agree with them or not is another question). With his bench stacked with forwards, I actually thought we'd see a number of those substitutions earlier. I wonder if his plan changed with where the team was at and how the game was unfolding and he wanted to see if those starters could work their way out of it.

Porecki had the second most tackles behind Valentine in that game, with AAA not far behind. Besides that ball he really wasn't expecting from AAA (I think he thought it was going out the back to Valentine), I really can't recall Porecki doing anything wrong. So I'm not sure why people are so critical and us needing to find a hooker gets raised so often, because it's not a change of personnel at hooker that's winning us a game like that.

We really didn't value the ball when we did get it, with our possession at 38% and territory at 35%. Argentina were the better team on the night. Our defence was better, but they still caused the Wallabies issues with their system. It's hard to know how much of the issues stemmed from Ikitau going off injured and the resulting reshuffle. I think it would have been a slightly different game if that mishap hadn't occured.

 

[Pfitzy]

Having great natural ability : talented

I was mostly pointing out this line of thinking is rubbish. It is a phrase people fall back on when they have no data to back it up.

It is a bit like "X-Factor"; used to justify a point of view when there is no evidence of superiority.

Have you seen Moneyball?

 

[Pfitzy]

Vunivalu is a better athlete than Kellaway, he would destroy Kellaway in a 100 metres run but Kellaway is a better rugby player

Narrow definition of what "athleticism" represents.

 

[Pfitzy]

Question re defensive halfback position at scrums - I thought this year we had a law change so that the defending 9 couldn't hang around the back of the scrum to disrupt the 9 who had fed the scrum. Was that just a Super Rugby law change? Asking because White was all over the Argie halfback at scrum time.

I believe that was in the GMGs for the amateur game here. They will roll into the cycle after RWC if it is deemed worthy of merit.

Which it is, so they probably won't.

 

[Happy]

Now I have calmed down from the emotions of last night, my takes on the game:
1. The low possession game plan is killing us.
2. Ikitau going off injured was disastrous for our defence. I also thought the "tackle" in which he was injured was a blatant shoulder charge. The defender led with his left shoulder with his left arm tucked. Just because his right arm was out a bit (probably for balance) doesn't mean he was trying to wrap. It seemed Peyper thought it was a shoulder charge live, but then Jonker told him he was satisfied with the wrap, just based on the tackler's right arm.
3. Speaking of Jonker, I can't remember in an international game like that a constant flow of chatter from the TMO. Even on Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase)'s intercept try he told Peyper he couldn't award it yet as he (Jonker) was still checking some angles.

We have a long way to go if we are going to be competitive at the World Cup, and I don't think shuffling deck chairs is the answer.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

So I had dinner guests last night and missed the game. If I watch a replay this morning am I going to throw a chair at the telly?

 

[Marce]

Narrow definition of what "athleticism" represents.

Yeah, both are synonymous. It's a pretty common word in sport even in rugby:




In Australia too:

 

[Drew]

^in the nba there’s a new rule where a flop is deemed a penalty against the flopper and a free throw given to the opposition. Surely a TMO in the refs ear all game would bring flopping to his attention? Or is simulating (soccer term) not a penalty in rugby? And finally, surely the TMO picked up Matera blindsiding White without the ball from an offside position. Or has the Faf incident scared him off acting up for a penalty?

So I had dinner guests last night and missed the game. If I watch a replay this morning am I going to throw a chair at the telly?

a deck chair. At least we are figuring out which ones to get rid of, I hope.

 

[molman]

I’ll continue saying it but we are playing against guys that are playing 30-35 games a year. They just understand how to handle situations when they arise on the field because they have seen it time and time again. They are better pros than our guys, not that they are better trainers and look after their body better but they just know what to do and when to do it because they have faced it so many times. At a minimum their players if not involved in that many game days are involved in the process of video analysis, game day tactics etc. that just make them so much wiser to adjust on a basis 30-35 times a season. They just live and breathe the game and it’s intricacies, that matter when the going gets tough.

We talk consistently about cohesion but our guys come from fewer teams and have more time together than this Argentine team, we talk about making sure our players are fresh for the international season but this Argentine team has gone through the ringer at their respective clubs. We try and balance so many things that I’m not sure in 2023 count to the success of the team any more, perhaps it’s actually to the detriment of the team. Talent isn’t an issue as respectfully we are better than Argentina man for man, we just aren’t better organised, disciplined or smart than they are.

I think your hypothesis doesn't entirely work. How do you explain NZ. Their players are playing a similar number of professional games mostly in the same competition and with resting protocols possibly fewer in a RWC year.

My personal thoughts are that it's the whole system in Australia not one simple, singular issue.

The amount of competition and resultant quality and the quality and level of coaching throughout a players career. Couple that with the nature of the sport market here and the money pressures that pull possible talent elsewhere - at an increasingly young age into NRL contracts or even Rugby Clubs in Japan & France. I feel like our feeders like the Shute Shield and Hospital Cup are not where they used to be with more options for players and the encumbered professionals spending less time returning to them. Comps like the MLR and Japan have dragged a swath of that next layer out of those competitions. We undoubtedly have the athletes and players with the raw attributes, some of them plying their trades for other international teams (Scotland, Ireland, Japan etc..etc..).

Ireland is a perfect case study for how a country with a lower starting base of resources can create alignment bottom to top. They punch well above their weight with regards to player pool and relative resourcing when compared to England, SA, France etc.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Where are people getting their stats? ESPN, like last week seems dodgy, or at least incomplete. Still, running with what we've got:

Does this strike a bell? Possession 38%. Territory 35%. We all know how that story plays out against an actual real first tier team.
Total passes from the halves Aus: 58; Arg: 108 just with the starting pair. White upped the anti this time with 38 passes, but the results speak a consistent game plan. Ouch.

Tackles in the match section are too rounded for me, but they add up in the player stat section so I'll run with it. Tackles Aus: 200; Arg: 80.

In the player tackles the highest number of tackles required by an Argie player was 8. For the Aussies (I'm just picking out results interesting to me): the top tacklers, mostly):
Quade: 14
Carter: 10 these two the highest in the backline
Valetini: 22, don't doubt he found it harder to follow up with driving attack runs in traffic
Porecki: 20, I'm not buying this "lack of input" narrative, add in the first time in ages we have an actual line out thrower and this bloke is inked into the XV with indelible ink for me.
AAA: 19
McReight: 19 again these two doing more than people are seeing.
Slipper: 12 - OK I wasn't buying the "tired" narrative, but perhaps.

Look, I like having EJ (Eddie Jones) (Eddie Jones) in control 100 times more than Rennie. And part of the deal we were buying into (those of us who were buying into it) was his "experimentation" and broad, umm, 'unique' thinking. Sheesh, it aint working in two games. It's not much for the robbery plan to be polished I know, but man this "RWC heist" needs to get on rails soon. If thing keeps up the way they are, I may even owe Brumby Runner an apology.

Not you Dru. It's the idiots who come on here and berate players without any reference to incidents/issues who owe all of us an apology.

We don't always agree, but often do so, but anytime you offer an opinion it is backed up with references, stats, and balance. I try to do the same despite some of the less intelligent among us accusing me of Brumby bias.

 

[molman]

Aside from all the minor Aus infringements he was not entitled to highlight, both he and Peyper should have at least checked the lead up to that last try, like they did with all the Wallabies ones.

He may have. If you read the protocols the TMO's are mean't to be checking in the background in a sweeper role and have the window of when a try is scored all the way until the restart (not conversion) to flag any reason why a try may not be awarded. They're not to inject otherwise as the amendments are to reduce TMO airtime and those stop/start replays for the referee. Maybe there wasn't anything clear and obvious to over rule that try.

 

[KOB1987]

He may have. If you read the protocols the TMO's are mean't to be checking in the background in a sweeper role and have the window of when a try is scored all the way until the restart (not conversion) to flag any reason why a try may not be awarded. They're not to inject otherwise as the amendments are to reduce TMO airtime and those stop/start replays for the referee. Maybe there wasn't anything clear and obvious to over rule that try.

The one that obviously wasn't checked was White being cleaned out off the ball. Compare that with Kerevi's arm brushing the Oscar winner.

 

[fatprop]

New coach.
Same old discipline.
Same old ruck shambles.
Same old silly offloads.

Same players

 

[Highlander35]

I think your hypothesis doesn't entirely work. How do you explain NZ. Their players are playing a similar number of professional games mostly in the same competition and with resting protocols possibly fewer in a RWC year.

 

[Brumby Runner]

How can Carter Gordon have demonstrated he’s better selection that Quade when he’s played 10 for all of 10 minutes and played 12 for 70? You might be showing some bias BR.

What he has shown is that he will in time be a very capable test player, and probably has versatility to play at 12 and 15. I said a week ago that he would already be better option in these positions than Hodge and proved true- he showed more in 70 minutes than Hodge has in 4 years.

Quite simply, Carter is a considerably better defender than Quade. To his credit, Quade got involved in a lot of defensive situations but his contribution was largely null or negative. How many times did he fall off the opposition player and then get caught on the wrong side of the ruck. I can recall a couple of penalties against him for that, but it could well have been more.

 

[molman]

Jorgensen also a future excellent fullback or 13 for me

Don't forget that Joseph Sua'ali'i will also become an option in the future. He has Folau like potential.

 

[LeCheese]

Not you Dru. It's the idiots who come on here and berate players without any reference to incidents/issues who owe all of us an apology.

We don't always agree, but often do so, but anytime you offer an opinion it is backed up with references, stats, and balance. I try to do the same despite some of the less intelligent among us accusing me of Brumby bias.

Still waiting on your detailed thoughts on why Cooper and Koro were 'well below par' btw.

 

[dru]

Ireland is a perfect case study for how a country with a lower starting base of resources can create alignment bottom to top. They punch well above their weight with regards to player pool and relative resourcing when compared to England, SA, France etc.

Ireland is often quoted in this vein. One issue we have that they don't is the distances between clubs. If Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra clubs were in the one comp with the top 12-14 in the main comp, the quality of the feeder to professional would be immensely better quality than right now.

 

[eastman]

Quite simply, Carter is a considerably better defender than Quade. To his credit, Quade got involved in a lot of defensive situations but his contribution was largely null or negative. How many times did he fall off the opposition player and then get caught on the wrong side of the ruck. I can recall a couple of penalties against him for that, but it could well have been more.

This is bias BR his defence was fine and regardless we don’t select fly halves for their defence or we’d have our mate Hodge starting there. Coopers defence has improved exponentially over the last couple of years, and more importantly it seems we finally have two capable players at 10.

 

[The Red Baron]

Bloody hell, same old story, isn't it? Flashes of brilliance punctuated by stupid mistakes and poor discipline.