Waratahs 2011 post mortem

[RedsHappy]

Was this invitation from the Waratah side of the business or the NSWRU side? Not to be pedantic but they are two separate entities.

Just a btw Hawko: is there any evidence that this cumbersome and expensive separation, with its two distinct boards, separate accounting, etc, has been anything other than a complete waste of time and money in relation to the cause of materially enhancing 'the business of the Waratahs team and brand'? What has this separation actually delivered of tangible value? (Genuine question.)

 

[Scarfman]

Injuries made things difficult THIS season. So did not being able to catch and pass accurately on the run. But the Waratahs are carrying a big monkey on their backs. They have NEVER won a Super Rugby title, while the Reds won a couple in the early years and the Brumbies won a couple of Super12s. Relative to their potential, the Waratahs are probably the most disappointing side in the history of the competition.

They need to forget about scraping into the finals, which seems to be their main goal. They need to go for it, manage the season over the season, and start to peak at the right end of the season. If they lose a couple of games early, like the Crusaders, so be it. But they have just got to aim for the title. All or nothing! Sydney or the bush!

 

[DPK]

To quote... someone (I can't remember who said it): "You live in the past, you die in the past". Time to start a new generation for the Tahs.

 

[Bullrush]

OK....entering the dragon's den.....

I would have played KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 right from the get-go. He should have trained there pre-season and started there right from Game 1 IMO. I'd have taken him at 1st-five over Barnes every day of the week. He's QC (Quade Cooper) without as many brain explosions and probably better defense and tackling. He may not have the long pass that QC (Quade Cooper) does but you don't need it to be a great fly-half. Plus, you can teach that pass....teaching someone to have some heart and tackle is much harder.

KB (Kurtley Beale) has played 10 before, he's played Super Rugby finals at 10 and it seems he wants to play there again - one of the reasons for his move to the Rebels. Before AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was shifted to centre to cover injury and KB (Kurtley Beale) was played at 15 last year, there wasn't any thought of him playing at fullback - where he's obviously been great BUT IMO he may be at least the 2nd best 1st-five in Australia. But you can't just throw him in randomly to cover injuries and expect him to have blinders. However, the ability to consistently influence games and results will always lie more with the 10 than the 15.

No-one could have known Barnes would have so many head issues but regardless, it would have been easier and less disruptive IMO to cover the 12 spot than the 10. And again....I'd take KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 in my team any day over Barnes.

Too bad he's going to Melbourne......Brett's leaving a nice hole at the Blues he could have filled nicely....lol

 

[Richo]

Actually, KB (Kurtley Beale) was played at 15 by the Waratahs well before Deans ran him there.

 

[Bullrush]

Actually, KB (Kurtley Beale) was played at 15 by the Waratahs well before Deans ran him there.

But he wasn't being seriously considered as the Wallaby full-back until the injury-enforced AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) move.

 

[qwerty51]

But he wasn't being seriously considered as the Wallaby full-back until the injury-enforced AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) move.

The first Test of the year against Fiji he played fullback with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the wing.

Looking back on the team, it had Edmonds, Fainga'a, Cowan, Valentine, Ma'afau, Alexander, Mumm and Brown in it. *cringe*

 

[Hawko]

Just a btw Hawko: is there any evidence that this cumbersome and expensive separation, with its two distinct boards, separate accounting, etc, has been anything other than a complete waste of time and money in relation to the cause of materially enhancing 'the business of the Waratahs team and brand'? What has this separation actually delivered of tangible value? (Genuine question.)

I never expected the separation to make a difference in the first six months. Its a long term (3 year) reorganisation. We may know if its been worth it or not in 2012 or 2013.

 

[Hawko]

Injuries made things difficult THIS season. So did not being able to catch and pass accurately on the run. But the Waratahs are carrying a big monkey on their backs. They have NEVER won a Super Rugby title, while the Reds won a couple in the early years and the Brumbies won a couple of Super12s. Relative to their potential, the Waratahs are probably the most disappointing side in the history of the competition.

They need to forget about scraping into the finals, which seems to be their main goal. They need to go for it, manage the season over the season, and start to peak at the right end of the season. If they lose a couple of games early, like the Crusaders, so be it. But they have just got to aim for the title. All or nothing! Sydney or the bush!

I think before round five, despite the Crusaders loss, they were targetting top spot. Then the wheels fell off and they were playing catch-up from there. Its why they adopted the "best 15 every week" policy (see 2012 thread posts). They were playing catch-up from round five onwards and they never quite did. In my opinion if they had beaten the Reds at Suncorp, which they could easily have done with the rub of the green (not to start a flame war), the whole year might still have turned out very differently. But they didn't and then the best 15 every week policy meant that their best players kept going down till there were more wounded than healthy. Luck played a part as did bad selection, poor gameplan and skills. But 50% was just bad luck, just like Link's second last year (2007?)

I don't agree that its an all or nothing issue. They have to plan better (like adopting better squad rotation), and then to establish and play to their systems and to play those systems with skill. If they choose to use England 2003 that's OK, as long as they play that style with precision and ruthlessness. I think they'd be better with another style but whatever they choose they have to stick to it and do it well.

 

[Richo]

But he wasn't being seriously considered as the Wallaby full-back until the injury-enforced AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) move.

Well, he was clearly the Wallaby back-up for the position -- that he got given it says as much. Moving him to FB was Hickey's best move last season, IMO.

 

[fatprop]

Disagree Bullrush, Beale actually played a lot of 15 throughout his school time

Beale has struggled to boss/direct a game from 10 over the last couple of years. His pass isn't the longest and he ends up being trapped in close getting tired as the opps send big units at him.

It wasn't until he moved to 15 with the Tah (and got fit again) that he found his mojo again.

15 to me lets him "poach" opportunities, find the miss matches, attacking wider. He can also play 10 from there when he sees the opportunity allowing a side to have right/left playmakers.

 

[topo]

Disagree Bullrush, Beale actually played a lot of 15 throughout his school time

Beale has struggled to boss/direct a game from 10 over the last couple of years. His pass isn't the longest and he ends up being trapped in close getting tired as the opps send big units at him.

It wasn't until he moved to 15 with the Tah (and got fit again) that he found his mojo again.

15 to me lets him "poach" opportunities, find the miss matches, attacking wider. He can also play 10 from there when he sees the opportunity allowing a side to have right/left playmakers.

While I don't disagree with what you say, FP, it is not true that KB (Kurtley Beale) played fullback at school. He was always a 10, although he often "did a Quade" and went to fullback in defence. This was mainly to take advantage of his counter attack rather than hide his weak defence. But he always had 10 on his back.

 

[fatprop]

While I don't disagree with what you say, FP, it is not true that KB (Kurtley Beale) played fullback at school. He was always a 10, although he often "did a Quade" and went to fullback in defence. This was mainly to take advantage of his counter attack rather than hide his weak defence. But he always had 10 on his back.

Fair enough, schools rugby ain't an area of my expertise, I was going on something Lee said once (from memory) he talked about Cooper being 10 & Beale 15 at times.

 

[Bullrush]

This is from Wikipedia (so it MUST be true....lol). Any comments in brackets are mine.

Youth
Beale was signed to the Waratahs at the age of 16 while still finishing his schooling at St Joseph's College, Hunters Hill. Before leaving school, Beale had captained the Australian Schoolboys and was regularly attending training sessions with the NSW Waratahs from the age of 15. At 17 he attended his first Wallabies training camp, on invitation by coach John Connolly. He drew comparisons from a young age to former Australian flyhalf Mark Ella due to both his skills and his Aboriginal heritage.

Senior
Western Sydney Rams

Beale initiated the inaugural season of the Australian Rugby Championship by starting five-eighth for the Rams in every game. Beale was one of the season's leading try scorers and try-assists in the competition. The Rams went on to become minor premiers in 2007 thanks to the contribution of Beale and other established rugby talents such as Tatafu Polota-Nau, Chris Siale and rising star Lachlan Turner. Beale was awarded player of the tournament (2007) in the ARC.

New South Wales

Beale made his Senior NSW debut against ACT in January 2007 in a trial in Wollongong. He scored a his first of many memorable tries; chipping around the winger and out pacing the fullback to score the try after coming on from the bench in the game which NSW won 12–0. Two weeks later, after again coming off the bench, Beale made a late break to assist the winning try against the Crusaders. Coach Ewen McKenzie had stated that Beale would not be rushed into the starting line up and would instead play second fiddle in his debut year behind Daniel Halangahu. However, it was no more than two weeks later that he made his starting debut against the Sharks at Absa stadium, South Africa only to lose 22–9. (It's pretty tough for an 18yr/19yr old to be thrust into such a key position with an established team like the Waratahs. Even Dan Carter wasn't shoved into that role so quickly.) The following week in only his second start as flyhalf, Beale scored one of the most memorable tries of the season: chipping over the first line defence and stealing the ball out of the fullbacks hands to score his first five pointer in Super 14.

Beale became established as the Waratahs first choice five-eighth for the start of the 2008 Super 14 season. (The year the Tahs made the final against the Crusaders. The Tahs were leading until Beale went off injured - he set up their first try with a great cross-field chip to Turner) He also assumed the goal kicking duties from Peter Hewat ahead of Lachlan Turner, but Beale's goal kicking is not seen as one of the team's strong points. His defence also became the subject of criticism after the round 2 loss to the Chiefs as NSW were forced to shift him to blindside wing in defence in order to shore up the midfield.

Beale was shifted to fullback for the 2010 season and the result was a number of improved performances including an impressive display against the Hurricanes in the final Super 14 round robin match in Sydney. The switch to fullback has allowed his vision and attacking options to expand especially returning kicks into broken play.

Beale currently plays for Randwick in the NSW domestic rugby competition.

Is Kurtley Beale a fantastic FB - no doubt.

But I really don't think he's been given a great start to his career at 10. I remember in NZ hearing all the talk and hype about this young kid before he'd even played a minute of Super Rugby - and we don't ever really hear about Aussie players until they play Super Rugby. The expectations were massive. I just don't think he was really ready for it or mature enough for it - and you could see that. Remember when put on that weight?

He's now a bit older, he's more mature and his defence has improved. And I think he wants to play closer to the action. When he first signed with the Rebels, the talk was that he'd be playing 10 or 12. I think maybe that was part of his motivation to move as well. Again, I'd have Beale at 10 over Cipriani every day of the week.

But he has to train and play there - he has to be no.1 choice. IMO, Beale has the skill-set, ability and attitude to be the best 10 in the world - a scary thought for a Blues and AB fan.

 

[chasmac]

Bullrush, appropriate for you to bring up your admiration of Beale in the Waratah post mortem thread. We too would like to have him next year !!

 

[Bullrush]

Bullrush, appropriate for you to bring up your admiration of Beale in the Waratah post mortem thread. We too would like to have him next year !!

Haha...I don't doubt it.

Just re-reading what I wrote, I realised that I would have Beale at 10 over Stephen Brett, Stephen Donald, Luke McAllister, Colin Slade, probably Aaron Cruden.....basically all the NZ contenders to Dan's crown....lol

 

[chasmac]

Haha...I don't doubt it.

Just re-reading what I wrote, I realised that I would have Beale at 10 over Stephen Brett, Stephen Donald, Luke McAllister, Colin Slade, probably Aaron Cruden.....basically all the NZ contenders to Dan's crown....lol

I prefer Beale at 15. I guess this is because he is world class at 15 right now. Us Aussies are very focussed on the present, we have heard alot from Deans about how we are building and developing, we are now looking forward to some results / trophies. Beale at 10 still needs time - I think you are correct in saying he has the potential to be world class. From a wallaby viewpoint I would put him at 15. The Rebels; they might have to put Cippers back to 15 depending on Beale's contract. I liked Cippers at 10 for the Rebels so this would be a tough decision.

Waratahs; I'd look beyond Barnes, I think he's gone. Halangahau needs a backup from somewhere.

 

[Bullrush]

I prefer Beale at 15. I guess this is because he is world class at 15 right now. Us Aussies are very focussed on the present, we have heard alot from Deans about how we are building and developing, we are now looking forward to some results / trophies. Beale at 10 still needs time - I think you are correct in saying he has the potential to be world class. From a wallaby viewpoint I would put him at 15. The Rebels; they might have to put Cippers back to 15 depending on Beale's contract. I liked Cippers at 10 for the Rebels so this would be a tough decision.

Waratahs; I'd look beyond Barnes, I think he's gone. Halangahau needs a backup from somewhere.

With the RWC around the corner - I agree. I said at the end of 2010 that if I was Hickey I would have played KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 all year as my first choice. And I think Beale does need some time to get comfortable in the role again.

But if given the option of having either the best 15 or the best 10 in the world, I would take the fly-half in a heart-beat.

As for the Tahs next year - I don't think Hangers is the man. I don't know who else is around for them but years of watching the Blues play with a second-string or average 10 ever since Carlos left has given me a real appreciation of what a quality 10 brings to the team.

 

[RedsHappy]

.... I don't know who else is around for them but years of watching the Blues play with a second-string or average 10 ever since Carlos left has given me a real appreciation of what a quality 10 brings to the team.

Ah! That explains why you are such an admirer of our QC (Quade Cooper) :lmao:.

 

[DPK]

Thanks a lot, Bullrush. Now I've remembered how good the ARC was, and how promising the Rams were.

Years of therapy, down the gurgler...