Where to for Super Rugby?

[KevinO]

I hope that it is settled out of court and that Cox settles for what he wants in intangible benefits instead of just money like
- total player payments provided by the ARU to be consistent across teams instead of the Waratahs being able to have a team funded by the ARU worth $7.6 million team against teams at $5.1 and $5.2 million (Rebels and Force)
- removal of restrictions on overseas players
- removal of the salary cap
- guarantee of the team being around till the end of the contract period (probably have some clear exit arrangement from the ARU to get around any thing they might pull)
- an apology for stuffing around
- Sean McMahon to get a better top up and stay at the Rebels

I really do hope this is his angle, but just to tip the court in the Rebels favour, we won't ask for the removal of the Salary cap. We will spend our 5 million cap on Australian eligible players and Cox can fund those international marque players himself/or through 3rd party sponsership outside of the cap.

 

[KevinO]

-Melbourne fans boycotting the test which reduces the money that can go to funding the game

The whole entire year has been torture, I don't blame anyone from boycotting this match. No offence but I don't think you quite understand how hard it is to get motivated about the game at the moment. Fiji on a long weekend was never going to be a draw card and the current events just made it worse.

I went to the test, little guys first Wallabies game. If the Rebels go it will be his last too.

did I enjoy it? Not really,
am I enjoying rugby this year? Only club

Just save us or chop us, but give us a bloody answer so we can move on from this bloody mess of a year already. It's turned fans against each other, its turned good rugby fans into pricks and it's made the kiwis even more intolerable than usual to listen to.

 

[half]

Going broke saved soccer in Australia - they had to go to the government for a bail out but they had to reform their administration and structure before the dollars came.

And sell their souls to Westfield.
We have a similar type of dynastic succession without the bail out.

Maybe the Buildcorp Rugby ...

 

[half]

I've been very supportive of 5 teams, but:
-Melbourne fans boycotting the test which reduces the money that can go to funding the game
- the Rebels now wanting to sue the ARU for millions

Melbourne may be the only place rugby has a pro team team soon.

Socceroos in Melbourne tonight 49, 874, a mid week game with whats considered an ordinary side under performing.

Follows 30K in Adelaide last Thursday.

We don't have the anymore the Football type code international status we used to. Boycotting a test match when our main competition is playing at the same time is the action of spoilt children.

We have four codes all calling themselves Football and once upon a time we where the football code that played the big international matches, since the Lowy take over its changed.

Makes me mad when people harm our long term positions.

If there was boycotting and we played the game at a time to attract the best crowd and we draw 13K . The Socceroos against Brazil was always going to get a crowd because its Brazil.

In the eyes of sponsors, media players, the general public we got panted.

None of this counts the 95+ k crowd that Brazil V Argentina drew.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^^Who'd have thought 20 years ago that an Australia v Saudi Arabia soccer match would draw more than double the crowd of Australia v Fiji rugby? A generation ago Aus v Fiji would have drawn close to a full house at the SCG and Australia v Saudi Arabia would have been lucky to draw 10,000.

I don't know how many people actually "boycotted" the test - which implies that they really wanted to go and watch it, but didn't on the basis of a protest. I suspect that most have just lost interest in anything but club.

It's at least a month since I watched a super rugby match, I'm not boycotting it, I just have no real interest in it. I think I saw about 10 mins of a couple of matches when I was channel surfing on a couple of Saturday nights - what was on display was so bad it didn't take long to hit the remote.

I might go to Australia v Scotland on Saturday afternoon, more to take the kids to an international rugby match than anything else.

Rugby in Australia needs a complete change in management and direction for the current malaise to be fixed. I'm not sure that anyone in the ARU possesses the ability to do so - in fact I'm sure that they don't.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I doubt that it would have been an arms length transaction. The ARU are completely involved in so many aspects of the Rebels that I can't see them getting away with some of their statements.

It is also pretty hard to be a big hitter in the market for talented players when the top up processes is fundamentally unbalanced.

I think a strong case can be put forward for the reduction in crowds of which a large part happened after the April 48-72 hours notice. In addition, the team has been unable to sign a new coach or, until recently, been able to sign any players which will significantly impact their performance in future years and thus future profits. At this point, I don't think they have enough players signed to play a match

I hope that it is settled out of court and that Cox settles for what he wants in intangible benefits instead of just money like
- total player payments provided by the ARU to be consistent across teams instead of the Waratahs being able to have a team funded by the ARU worth $7.6 million team against teams at $5.1 and $5.2 million (Rebels and Force)
- removal of restrictions on overseas players
- removal of the salary cap
- guarantee of the team being around till the end of the contract period (probably have some clear exit arrangement from the ARU to get around any thing they might pull)
- an apology for stuffing around
- Sean McMahon to get a better top up and stay at the Rebels

^^^^^Is that your shopping list or your bottom line because some of those could not happen: removal of a salary cap for one.
Doesn't unrestricted access to foreign players tend to defeat the rationale for having 5 teams?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

^^^^Who'd have thought 20 years ago that an Australia v Saudi Arabia soccer match would draw more than double the crowd of Australia v Fiji rugby? A generation ago Aus v Fiji would have drawn close to a full house at the SCG and Australia v Saudi Arabia would have been lucky to draw 10,000.

I don't know how many people actually "boycotted" the test - which implies that they really wanted to go and watch it, but didn't on the basis of a protest. I suspect that most have just lost interest in anything but club.

It's at least a month since I watched a super rugby match, I'm not boycotting it, I just have no real interest in it. I think I saw about 10 mins of a couple of matches when I was channel surfing on a couple of Saturday nights - what was on display was so bad it didn't take long to hit the remote.

I might go to Australia v Scotland on Saturday afternoon, more to take the kids to an international rugby match than anything else.

Rugby in Australia needs a complete change in management and direction for the current malaise to be fixed. I'm not sure that anyone in the ARU possesses the ability to do so - in fact I'm sure that they don't.

QH your missing some great rugby across the ditch. Record it and then you don't have to watch twin peaks!

 

[James Pettifer]

^^^^Who'd have thought 20 years ago that an Australia v Saudi Arabia soccer match would draw more than double the crowd of Australia v Fiji rugby? A generation ago Aus v Fiji would have drawn close to a full house at the SCG and Australia v Saudi Arabia would have been lucky to draw 10,000.

But Australia v Saudi Arabia is now a world cup qualifying game. Compared to a friendly against Fiji.

Fiji has played Australia twice in the past 10 years in Australia bringing 20,000 people in Perth in 2007 and 15,000 people in Canberra in 2010. Australia won those games 49-0 and 49-3.

If there was boycotting and we played the game at a time to attract the best crowd and we draw 13K . .

I didn't go to the game. I didn't boycott it. I just really wasn't that interested and there were a number of factors which influenced that including
- timing - afternoon is difficult for me to go
- the opposition - Fiji isn't a drawcard side. They have been thrashed the last couple of times they have played in Australia.
- the Australian team - no Rebels wasn't a huge impact but it did have some impact
- Rugby overall - I have gone to my last home game for the year for my team (I'll be away for their last home game) and I still have no clarity over whether they will be around next year. That makes me and a significant number of fans quite disillusioned.

I think many people who would have gone in previous years would have had the same drivers behind their reason for not going.

 

[Dave Beat]

I can not believe the is dragging on with little, or no leadership.

ARU appears to have no leadership, direction, game plan.

As can be seen above this is hurting our game.

Even rusted on supporters in the strong states haven't watched a game for over a month.

Listen to your audience.

 

[James Pettifer]

^^^^^Is that your shopping list or your bottom line because some of those could not happen: removal of a salary cap for one.
Doesn't unrestricted access to foreign players tend to defeat the rationale for having 5 teams?

I think it is more of what I would have as a shopping list if I were Cox. Obviously everything (bar closing the Rebels) is up for negotiation.

I don't think that access to foreign players defeats the rationale for 5 teams. If the problem is that Australia doesn't have the depth (which I don't agree with) then why wouldn't we consider bringing in additional players both from a brand perspective and from a depth perspective.

The big problem I have with Super Rugby (which is what this touches on) is it there to produce Wallabies or are the clubs there as stand alone entities (say compare Sheffield Shield cricket v the Big Bash)

At the moment, we are halfway in between and it is one of the many reasons that things are broken.

If it is to produce Wallabies then there should be no foreign players, a significantly more centralised model and definitely no private ownership in the form we do have.

If it is for clubs to be stand alone entities then the playing field needs to be flattened between clubs (the top ups in particular) and the access to players needs to be expanded.

 

[chibimatty]

If Cox was given salary cap exemption and no restrictions on nationality so he can buy whomever he wants, does that mean that it would free up a bunch of current Rebels players to bolster the other Australian Super Rugby teams?

 

[dru]

I've been very supportive of 5 teams, but:
-Melbourne fans boycotting the test which reduces the money that can go to funding the game
- the Rebels now wanting to sue the ARU for millions

Melbourne may be the only place rugby has a pro team team soon.

Shooting the messenger?

What floors me are people who have been watching this unfold, watching the wide felt disenchantment of the fans, how this broaches into real anger at the grass roots in the two directly effected unions - - - and then expected something else.

The ARU made no obvious attempt in Melbourne to give the game a go. Messy scheduling, less than the best choice of opponent, nil marketing. It's the very definition of a "Leadership" resting on it's "laurels", with no actual engagement with the sport. The ONLY way this works is through a healthy grass roots fan base. Which the ARU has been treating in complete contempt.

I ask again, how is it that an observer could have expected anything else?

 

[One eyed pirate]

QH your missing some great rugby across the ditch. Record it and then you don't have to watch twin peaks!

Yep, the lions tour has been awesome to watch so far. The fact that nz can put up so many different players to match a lions squad and beat them sometimes, shows the incredible depth of NZ rugby.


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[Forceright]

Presumably cox boght the Rebels in an arms length transaction.
It's not entirely clear that the ARU had a duty to tell him their views about viability of a 5 team set up.
They had no major sponsor before any of this broke and they've never been big hitters in the market for talented players at the peak of their powers, so it's not easy to see what opportunities they've lost as a result of being identified as potentially for the gallows.

How about he paid $1 (yes -$1), & about $13mill in debts/loans was wiped clean by the ARU to sweeten the deal? Yes-it's in the financials! And then he was handed a further bucketload of cash. $35mill since 2013 to the Rebels.

 

[BLR]

The ARU made no obvious attempt in Melbourne to give the game a go. Messy scheduling, less than the best choice of opponent, nil marketing. It's the very definition of a "Leadership" resting on it's "laurels", with no actual engagement with the sport. The ONLY way this works is through a healthy grass roots fan base. Which the ARU has been treating in complete contempt.

They threw boatloads of cash at them without any KPI's associated with its use. God knows what the Rebs used it on but I'd say they had a fair crack of the whip.

 

[stoff]

Boycotting a test match when our main competition is playing at the same time is the action of spoilt children...

Makes me mad when people harm our long term positions.

Given out woes I kinda decided to leave Super Rugby and look at local park teams. I still need a degree of high level sport and in the interest of getting fed soccer has seen me arrive.

So the childishness is related to the tier?



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[James Pettifer]

How about he paid $1 (yes -$1), & about $13mill in debts/loans was wiped clean by the ARU to sweeten the deal? Yes-it's in the financials! And then he was handed a further bucketload of cash. $35mill since 2013 to the Rebels.

Why would you expect him to take on the debts?

I'm assuming the $35 million covers 2013 - 2017 and includes all payments including player payments? If so, then the Waratahs would have received over $35 million purely on player payments excluding anything else.

 

[Killer]

My guess is Cox is just strengthening his position as best he can, clearly imo he is not totally comfortable yet.
Probably preparing to lay all his cards on the table showing how far he is prepared to go to protect himself and what his whole arguments are.
From my limited/tiny experience of legal matters there is no advantage gained during the discovery process of withholding information. This is because in most cases the outcome is an agreed outcome between both parties and not a judgement.
It's not like the movies where they keep an ace up their sleeve.
So this is, if it comes about, is just part of the process and doesn't change anything. All three parties, WF Rebs and ARU, are still in unknown territory.

 

[James Pettifer]

They threw boatloads of cash at them without any KPI's associated with its use. God knows what the Rebs used it on but I'd say they had a fair crack of the whip.

Rubbish. The ARU did exactly what they did at the Force. Left them with the players that hadn't been signed up by other teams. Did nothing to encourage players to move to the new teams and when decent players looked like leaving either for overseas or other teams did absolutely nothing to encourage them to stay.

Compare to how the AFL support their new teams.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

it's made the kiwis even more intolerable than usual to listen to.