Where to for Super Rugby?

[Quick Hands]

Particularly with the price of meat these days

I could have used the Shore pie analogy, but the main consumers don't inhabit this thread.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

At the end of the day, the success or failure of whatever is promulgated will depend largely on the quality of the rugby on display. The better the playing stock, the better the rugby. Have a look at just about any ITM Cup game for reinforcement of this simple fact.


Tahs fans had no problems accepting Potgeiter. For example.

We grow the game in this country by having great teams to watch and support. New Zealand have greater depth of stars _ we have a bigger commercial market to compete against and grow market share. Trans Tasman Asian conference with super bowl finals against conference makes so much sense. With depth of new Zealand rugby players and more innovative product like nrc style could finally give nrl a shake...not to be bigger than nrl but win back some bigger market market share.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[half]

There's plenty of people asking questions of the ARU and Pulver over this mess. However it serves no purpose to have them resign at this critical point in time, despite their past mistakes it is better to have them in charge rather then trying to recruit and appoint a new board when crucial negotiations are taking place.

Really aside from some posters on this site and the Roar I have not seen much. Peter Fitz run an article recently recommending we cut to four teams... I can't recall a single article or thread with a head line that read Pulver out ARU out or similar.

What I find quite puzzling is that despite significant evidence from other sports as to what works for elite sport in Australia, rugby authorities either ignore the evidence completely or say how it couldn't apply to rugby - apparently we're so unique that the sporting norms which apply across the Australian sporting landscape don't apply to rugby.

EDIT: And I'd add that it's almost beyond belief that the ARU were warned twice, in two separate reports that continuing in super rugby would be a disaster for the code in this country, but signed up again anyway.

Beyond belief, the lack of visionary leadership over decades sadly has lead us to where we are.

I also maintain we have had very lazy leadership.

At the end of the day, the success or failure of whatever is promulgated will depend largely on the quality of the rugby on display. The better the playing stock, the better the rugby. Have a look at just about any ITM Cup game for reinforcement of this simple fact.


Tahs fans had no problems accepting Potgeiter. For example.

Agree only to a point, accessibility, visibility, media, timing of games, we have stuffed them all.

A small story, I wrote to the ARU when they decided to move the training of the Wallabies to Coffs Harbour. I said have a look at TGM.

TGM at the time was in travel time from 7, 8 minutes, from 10 hhhmmm maybe 5 minutes, from 9 & 2 roughly 20 to 25 minutes and SBS 25 to 30 minutes. Its 25 minutes from 2UE then Australia's biggest radio network with John Laws and an Australia wide broadcast of a two hour sports show.

Further I said it sits at the tip of Australia largest research are with over 30, 000 jobs and many of the worlds largest corporation most looking to sponsor something local.

Ignoring the costs savings it was a no brainier and it would have kept the money in rugby.

What I would have given for an Andrew Demetriou.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Half, I think I'd qualify as a fairly harsh critic of the ARU on many things and I've certainly questioned Pulver's abilities on a number of occasions. I've often been taken to task by quite a number of posters for these views. I note that finally some of these people are finally starting to question the ARU and its competenance. (I would say though, that Pulver wasn't responsible for the move to Sunday junior club rugby - although he probably would have made the same decision as it coincides with the rugby world view of most administrators in the ARU/NSWRU over the past 20 years)

I'll own up to being initially in favour of the super rugby concept. Whether it was right or wrong 20 years ago is up for debate. However, what's fairly clear is that super rugby has had its day. From an Australian perspective, the evidence is overwhelming that we are obtaining no net benefit from our participation: Wallabies results in decline, Aussie super teams in decline, private school rugby in decline, state school rugby almost gone, junior club rugby almost gone, subbies rugby in Sydney in decline. The trend line for every one of these is down. The only area which seems to be holding its own is grade rugby at district level. Add to this the game is broke or almost broke.

What I find quite puzzling is that despite significant evidence from other sports as to what works for elite sport in Australia, rugby authorities either ignore the evidence completely or say how it couldn't apply to rugby - apparently we're so unique that the sporting norms which apply across the Australian sporting landscape don't apply to rugby.

EDIT: And I'd add that it's almost beyond belief that the ARU were warned twice, in two separate reports that continuing in super rugby would be a disaster for the code in this country, but signed up again anyway.

Super rugby was ok but just not has evolved the right way with conference structures and in particular for the oz market where no professional domestic league behind this. A trans Tasman concept could work because time zones work. What won't work anymore is nz or sa thinking we will just accept super rugby as our only option as voices becoming very clear on that oz Rugby supporters had enough. The governing Rugby body which for the moment is the aru, will have to make plans for its own destiny beyond 2020, as fans are leading the revolution for change by refusing to support the dogs breakfast of super rugby which does nothing to generate domestic interest and following in this country or encourage grass roots participation because of lack of professional opportunities this dwindling domestic fan interest in the current super rugby product.

The revolution that was needed a decade ago is now happening without a Doubt so the aru can lead the revolution or get the hell out of the way and let others more capable to lead it now. As whether happens now or not, pressures for change will only grow unless real change happens and the aru won't be able to stop it and be pushed aside if they can't take the leadership required to make the changes demanded by the oz Rugby public.



Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[wamberal]

QH,


I do understand the problem. Or should I say, problems. Talking about popularity, not all that long ago my wife and I attended a Shute Shield Grand Final at the SFS, along with the best part of 20,000 or so.


Now fewer than half that number watch it.


That's a pretty good case study, right there. What did the ARU do wrong to cause that fall in popularity? Was Super Rugby the problem? Was the introduction of the ARC the problem?


You tell me, then we'll both know. But one thing I do know, we need the revenue that Super Rugby brings in to help keep the elite level (and the NRC, by the way) afloat.


Other than that, I have no bright ideas. The games in the early hours of the morning bring in revenue that would otherwise not exist for us.


If potential supporters in Sydney do not know that the Tahs are playing, they are not really interested in the game.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

QH,


I do understand the problem. Or should I say, problems. Talking about popularity, not all that long ago my wife and I attended a Shute Shield Grand Final at the SFS, along with the best part of 20,000 or so.


Now fewer than half that number watch it.


That's a pretty good case study, right there. What did the ARU do wrong to cause that fall in popularity? Was Super Rugby the problem? Was the introduction of the ARC the problem?


You tell me, then we'll both know. But one thing I do know, we need the revenue that Super Rugby brings in to help keep the elite level (and the NRC, by the way) afloat.


Other than that, I have no bright ideas. The games in the early hours of the morning bring in revenue that would otherwise not exist for us.


If potential supporters in Sydney do not know that the Tahs are playing, they are not really interested in the game.

We are just too dependant on super rugby without a professional domestic league _ payto.s answer of super bowl conference system where broad caster buys whole packAge could answer the problems you outline

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[Brumby Runner]

As for the contractural issues, I don't see why there needs to be a complete moratorium placed on contracting non-Wallabies, most clubs usually approach the end of the season with 5-6 positions vacant on the roster, that's 25-30 across the Australian teams.

Let teams to continue contracting players with an additional clause in there that if the team folds then they may move to another team under the same contract, or if they don't want to move then they are free for a release. Worst case a team folds and all teams have an expanded squad for 2018-2019 to allow for the additional contracted players.

Teams need to lock in players and players want to lock in their future. At the current rate, players will look to secure their futures overseas due to the poor handling from ARU/SANZAAR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I like this approach TOCC, certainly a whole lot better than the approach taken by the ARU. But, wouldn't it leave the four remaining franchises vulnerable to spending over the expenditure cap if they are absorbing players on high value contracts when they might have already just about filled their playing roster? And if the ARU/franchises can't afford to run five sides, then I would be concerned that there wouldn't be the funding available to guarantee the displaced players the same value contract elsewhere.

 

[TOCC]

I like this approach TOCC, certainly a whole lot better than the approach taken by the ARU. But, wouldn't it leave the four remaining franchises vulnerable to spending over the expenditure cap if they are absorbing players on high value contracts when they might have already just about filled their playing roster? And if the ARU/franchises can't afford to run five sides, then I would be concerned that there wouldn't be the funding available to guarantee the displaced players the same value contract elsewhere.

The way I see it, this situation should be sorted out in the next 6-8 weeks... at the corresponding point in other years most teams wouldn't typically still have 7-8 vacancies still on their roster for the proceeding season, so if a team is cut then those vacancies could be filled out by the players from the cut team..

Obviously still issue with recruiting players in the right positions, so for the remaining 4 teams expand the squads by 3-5 for 2018/2019, use the savings from the new team too offset the additional wages.

 

[wamberal]

Based on last night's ratings, we really need to get some momentum.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Really aside from some posters on this site and the Roar I have not seen much. Peter Fitz run an article recently recommending we cut to four teams. I can't recall a single article or thread with a head line that read Pulver out ARU out or similar.




Beyond belief, the lack of visionary leadership over decades sadly has lead us to where we are.

I also maintain we have had very lazy leadership.




Agree only to a point, accessibility, visibility, media, timing of games, we have stuffed them all.

A small story, I wrote to the ARU when they decided to move the training of the Wallabies to Coffs Harbour. I said have a look at TGM.

TGM at the time was in travel time from 7, 8 minutes, from 10 hhhmmm maybe 5 minutes, from 9 & 2 roughly 20 to 25 minutes and SBS 25 to 30 minutes. Its 25 minutes from 2UE then Australia's biggest radio network with John Laws and an Australia wide broadcast of a two hour sports show.

Further I said it sits at the tip of Australia largest research are with over 30, 000 jobs and many of the worlds largest corporation most looking to sponsor something local.

Ignoring the costs savings it was a no brainier and it would have kept the money in rugby.

What I would have given for an Andrew Demetriou.

3 ceos of ARU and they all attended Sydney gps schools.
They should have paid whatever it took took to lure Demetriou (some of us said it at he time), and a heads up, apart from a somewhat toffy name the present afl bloke seems to be the goods too.

 

[Quick Hands]

QH,


I do understand the problem. Or should I say, problems. Talking about popularity, not all that long ago my wife and I attended a Shute Shield Grand Final at the SFS, along with the best part of 20,000 or so.


Now fewer than half that number watch it.


That's a pretty good case study, right there. What did the ARU do wrong to cause that fall in popularity? Was Super Rugby the problem? Was the introduction of the ARC the problem?


You tell me, then we'll both know. But one thing I do know, we need the revenue that Super Rugby brings in to help keep the elite level (and the NRC, by the way) afloat.


Other than that, I have no bright ideas. The games in the early hours of the morning bring in revenue that would otherwise not exist for us.


If potential supporters in Sydney do not know that the Tahs are playing, they are not really interested in the game.

My opinion (and its only my opinion) is that there has been a singular lack or foresight and planning in the professional era. Let's leave the amateur era aside because we'll get into all sorts of arguments about volunteer administrators.

Yes, rugby faces a myriad of problems and to my mind they can all be traced back to one thing - per capita there are much fewer young people playing the game at junior club level and even school level than there were 40 years ago.

The fall in popularity of which you speak is directly related to this. For a generation we've had fewer and fewer people playing the games as kids and thus fewer and fewer adults coaching, watching, introducing their kids to the game etc. My brother is a case in point - a pretty handy player (much better than me). He played Sydney 16s and every junior rugby rep team that you could get into - both his sons play soccer. None of their mates play rugby, so they didn't. So my brother follows the Wallabies and the Marlins, but he has only has passing interest in the Waratahs. His two boys have no interest in rugby whatsoever.

In the private school system, rugby is hanging on - just. At most GPS and CAS schools, there are now more soccer teams than rugby. Rugby enjoys pre-eminence based on the fact that the majority of the old boy communities played rugby at school. It won't be long before the majority of private school old boys will have no experience of or affinity to rugby.

In terms of revenue, we are constantly told by the ARU that the Wallabies are the only part of the game which makes money. The NRC and super rugby are essentially loss-making activities propped up by TV money. I can't see how this money from super rugby is providing any tangible benefit to Australian rugby - all the evidence is to the contrary in fact.

The ARU need to find some way to expand the game at the junior level - other sports do it. Junior player numbers at Manly Hockey Club are up 400% over the past 5 years. Junior players at Northern Beaches Breakers Wter Polo club have doubled during the same period. Junior rugby numbers continue to contract - and we are repeatedly told that all the sporting norms which apply to all of these other sports simply can't be applied to rugby. I'm sure not every single thing is transferable, but it beggars belief that the powers that be perpetuate this line that nothing which applies to other sports could possibly to apply to rugby.

To most of the population and even many in the rugby community, super rugby is a non-event, sometimes played in the middle of the night sometimes no games with a bye, with a 4 week break when the whole thing stops, and with a conference and finals system which is incomprehensible. There's just no way as a sport that we can use this to either grow junior numbers or grow interest generally in the game.

So back to your question - what can the ARU do?

Follow what most sports in Australia do:

1. Have a junior and youth development programme that is club based and not school based

2. Have our primary elite competition as a national league (not a multi-national league)

 

[Rugbynutter39]

3 ceos of ARU and they all attended Sydney gps schools.
They should have paid whatever it took took to lure Demetriou (some of us said it at he time), and a heads up, apart from a somewhat toffy name the present afl bloke seems to be the goods too.

Peter f's article was pissweak journalism at its best and showed no broader insights into the games problem than just what mug league punters have had written up. He has added nothing to the debate and waste of space on the subject and no doubt why he writes little about rugby. What a tool.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[Quick Hands]

If potential supporters in Sydney do not know that the Tahs are playing, they are not really interested in the game.

Which is a big problem for the game of rugby.

 

[wamberal]

You blokes have got a bit of a Messiah complex. Running the AFL, on the one hand, and running the ARU on the other are about as alike as chalk and cheese.



One thing I have learned in a long career in a pretty successful sporting organisation is that there is absolutely no substitute for a deep knowledge of and appreciation for the sport that is bringing in the bucks.


Sport is sport, it is not business (although of course professional sports do necessitate a lot of business skills to run effectively).


You really imagine that somebody who has probably never seen a game of rugby in his life could waltz in and come to grips with this beast of a sport?


I am sure that AFL as a sport has its technicalities, but nothing like rugby. AFL is Australian through and through, rugby is not. AFL is self-governing, Australian rugby controls a minor part of the game here, all things considered.

AFL has a huge momentum as a sport, built up over a 100 years of tribalism and fierce local competition. Rugby is, by any reasonable measure, a niche sport in Australia.


Come on, chaps. It would take Demetriou 5 years to get up to speed with the game as a game, with all its politics, the international governance and relationships that are crucial, etc etc.


I am a State school boy through and through, but I would concede that given our game is only played in a handful of schools these days, that it is just as likely as not that our CEO would have gone to a GPS school. And it does not bother me one iota.


JON had a perfect CV for the job when he was appointed.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Peter f's article was pissweak journalism at its best and showed no broader insights into the games problem than just what mug league punters have had written up. He has added nothing to the debate and waste of space on the subject and no doubt why he writes little about rugby. What a tool.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

i will not read anything written by the buffoon: I wasted 14 hours on a flight LA reading his account of the dawn of pro rugby: comic book standard writing without the saving grace of pictures.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

JON had a perfect CV for the job when he was appointed.

He worked in middle management at a bank: and we wonder how we built mediocrity into our management of the game.
Demetriou had, at least, a sporting pedigree: JON had a pedigree of looking after himself. How much better is the A league since we took him back and gave him the $2m golden handshake.

 

[cyclopath]

i will not read anything written by the buffoon: I wasted 14 hours on a flight LA reading his account of the dawn of pro rugby: comic book standard writing without the saving grace of pictures.

You're patient. If a book doesn't grab me within the first 40-50 pages, I'll probably put it aside. I find his style when he writes in the tabloid media pretty annoying. I must confess I've read none of his books.

 

[Tomikin]

after the quality of play in the Australian super rugby sides, we need to cut one. we dont have the cattle to support 5 super teams & it will show at the wallabies level. Less teams means more competition for starting spots & tougher games each week, which we need, not only for the players but the fans.

Also means less cattle to select from, Hodge is an example of someone who be in SS or overseas if not for the Rebels.. Maybe Sean McMahon as well, were would he of got a gig if not for the Rebels, probably would have shone through but gee its a lose for our teams.. less spots less players less chance to make dimonds.. more kids going to league as theres more chances to make it.. shrinking the player pool doesnt make it better

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Rugbynutter39]

You blokes have got a bit of a Messiah complex. Running the AFL, on the one hand, and running the ARU on the other are about as alike as chalk and cheese.



One thing I have learned in a long career in a pretty successful sporting organisation is that there is absolutely no substitute for a deep knowledge of and appreciation for the sport that is bringing in the bucks.


Sport is sport, it is not business (although of course professional sports do necessitate a lot of business skills to run effectively).


You really imagine that somebody who has probably never seen a game of rugby in his life could waltz in and come to grips with this beast of a sport?


I am sure that AFL as a sport has its technicalities, but nothing like rugby. AFL is Australian through and through, rugby is not. AFL is self-governing, Australian rugby controls a minor part of the game here, all things considered.

AFL has a huge momentum as a sport, built up over a 100 years of tribalism and fierce local competition. Rugby is, by any reasonable measure, a niche sport in Australia.


Come on, chaps. It would take Demetriou 5 years to get up to speed with the game as a game, with all its politics, the international governance and relationships that are crucial, etc etc.


I am a State school boy through and through, but I would concede that given our game is only played in a handful of schools these days, that it is just as likely as not that our CEO would have gone to a GPS school. And it does not bother me one iota.


JON had a perfect CV for the job when he was appointed.

I disagree as a professional sports administrator not blinded by politics of rugby or bias by its traditions with good leadership skills to harness good Rugby brains could make a big difference if right candidate. But they are hard to find and hard to find for sort of money we could offer. I think Bill Pulver is ok but quality of other aru key board and management positions could be improved as don't believe well supported there. But money would be a restriction here as rugby not been awash with cash for some time.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You're patient. If a book doesn't grab me within the first 40-50 pages, I'll probably put it aside. I find his style when he writes in the tabloid media pretty annoying. I must confess I've read none of his books.

It was a long time ago before I realised how short life is