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Where to for Super Rugby?

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dru

Tim Horan (67)
The key culprits without any shadow of a doubt are Clynne and the ARU board. Tew is next. Whatever you Kiwis are thinking, we in Aus need to be ready to move on. Will Castle have the balls? Another Kiwi at the helm? And actually the answer there is unknown. Either way, Kiwis choose to help Aus through this mess, no, not to myopic Super/Kiwi requirements, but to Aus requirements - the Aus market requirements, or you end up on your own. Personally I’d prefer that to be an Aus decision. Which is unlikely. Result, for NZ, is the same. No Aussie rugby partner. One way forward has reasonable prorugby in Aus. The other, Kiwi way, leaves rugby here dead. And Tew very much is involved.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Errrr. The question is, as always, where does each partner's self-interest lie?



Will the Kiwis make sacrifices to help us? If they perceive it to be in their self-interest, they will. Otherwise, they won't. In the professional era things are a lot simpler, and deadlier.


Blaming Clyne and the current board for this is pathetic. You might as well blame the rooster when the sun rises and spoils your morning sleep.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
^^^^^^ Steve Tew & NZR are not your enemy.

I think you're the only one using the word "enemy".

A friendly relationship—where mutually beneficial—is certainly preferable.

But I'd put it this way: NZR (including Tew) are not an ally of Australian rugby.

Never will be. Never can be.

Personally I’d prefer that to be an Aus decision.

Absolutely.

It's time to plan the future, post-SANZAJARG.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Hard to imagine any other response from Tew other than "well you blokes had a spreadsheet showing three teams works - get on with it."

I am hoping Twiggyball and Twiggy money pumped into Indo Pacific comp will shift power balance back to Oz more in control of its own destiny. Kiwi's and Tew have the upperhand with Super Rugby and to the detriment of Oz being able to enact changes in that competition that might suit oz interests.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
I think it's called "pissing your money up against the wall" or that's how our outgoing CEO might describe using money in such a spendthrift way.

Wow ratings and crowds at games well down, performance last year well down....and they get 25% pay increase and also extra weeks vacation leave (that makes sense as clearly Oz super rugby players could do with less time training and on fitness). Brilliant....you have your worst Super rugby performance by Oz super rugby players since Super Rugby inception and you reward this with a massive pay increase. Am I missing something?
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
True but if you read some of the posts on here there's a clear sentiment that Tew & NZR are somehow to blame for what happened at that SANZAAR board meeting & subsequently.

And there in lies the problem that I alluded to earlier, it's much easier to blame NZRU for Australia's problems than actually come up with ideas to fix it. What is it that dru, Kiap etc want NZRU do? Say we will have a trans tasman comp, and not worry about what you or your fans want because we think it will be better for Aus rugby? And to even keep on whinging and moaning at Clyne etc (and obviously Castle will be next she is a kiwi) is have a wee peek at how and why ARU is in the position it is in. And I think it goes back to before Pulver's days when rightly or wrongly JON and crew decided to go for more Super teams when there was a few dollars around, and I had impression that ARU, or any of the boards below them QRU, NSWRU,etc etc never seemed to use the popularity that rugby had to get in and promote the game in junior/grassroot levels, and decided that it had to be built from the top down. The same excuses were used then, but we not number 1 sport etc etc, and it's so hard. I always thought dropping Force was wrong, but to blame NZRU for it is ridiculous to say the least.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
True but if you read some of the posts on here there's a clear sentiment that Tew & NZR are somehow to blame.

I don't get why you are defending him. Tew & NZR are as much to blame as Pulver and the ARU for the botched Super-15-18-15. And they'll all get their due. However, Tew is not the main interest of posts on here. The real aim is closer to home.

And to even keep on whinging and moaning at Clyne etc (and obviously Castle will be next she is a kiwi)

Don't bet the farm on Raelene. FATWIM – Flunked Accounting Tried Working In Marketing. The mismanagement at the Bulldogs where they overpaid for fading stars on the decline to gain minor-placed success left a mess. Big back-ended contracts that hit their white-elephant stage just as she departed.

But Castle is not the real problem. Her appointment papers up the holes to try and cover over the stench. Under the re-branding it's the same dysfunctional ARU run by the same old cronies.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Wow ratings and crowds at games well down, performance last year well down..and they get 25% pay increase and also extra weeks vacation leave (that makes sense as clearly Oz super rugby players could do with less time training and on fitness). Brilliant..you have your worst Super rugby performance by Oz super rugby players since Super Rugby inception and you reward this with a massive pay increase. Am I missing something?

The players actually voted against the scenario which has presented them with the chance for a pay increase. They voted to retain 5 teams through RUPA.

Are the players really to blame for the pay rise? On the current issue don’t think they are the ones to blame, in fact the demand for increased squad sizes by RUPA is at the detriment of their own pay increase. Had they voted to retain squad sizes at the same size then it would have meant a larger pay increase.

RA are the ones who have determined that extra money equates to improved performances, I don’t think there’s been any demands by the players the past few years which have being unreasonable, they agreed to reducing match payments to stem RA’s losses.
 

Tomikin

Simon Poidevin (60)
The players actually voted against the scenario which has presented them with the chance for a pay increase. They voted to retain 5 teams through RUPA.

Are the players really to blame for the pay rise? On the current issue don’t think they are the ones to blame, in fact the demand for increased squad sizes by RUPA is at the detriment of their own pay increase. Had they voted to retain squad sizes at the same size then it would have meant a larger pay increase.

RA are the ones who have determined that extra money equates to improved performances, I don’t think there’s been any demands by the players the past few years which have being unreasonable, they agreed to reducing match payments to stem RA’s losses.
That doesn't fit the pitch fork narratives. BURN THEM ALL

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Dan54

To your post above.

Lots of emotion, about NZ rugby and the NZ fan, which is very positive. No doubt NZ is the boss rugby nation in our neck of the woods.

While you acknowledge, the acceptance that NZ rugbies need a strong Australia, you then say in the next sentence essentially why should NZ fans consider a trans-Tasman competition.

IMO this typifies reactions to the issue in NZ. Yes we understand it’s our fault. We understand at some point in the past we upset the sporting gods and they lumped us with the worst admins in the world.

The sporting environment in Australia is very competitive and rugby is struggling to not shrink anymore never mind grow in a meaningful manner.

Added to this is the increasing interest and expansion of league into the PI nations.

Many knowledgeable people in Australia believe rugby in Australia is at some kinda tipping point where if it falls much further then recovery to former levels will be all but impossible.

Into this mix we have SA with government interference and two former Super Rugby teams now playing in a new league.

As the repercussions in NZ to date have been almost zero, I feel its more an academic discussion in NZ and blame the Aussies for their own mess. However there is a very good chance rugby in Australia could enter a period of advancing decline and at some stage it will be too late to come in a try to fix.

Despite what NZ may think or the results of the next two years with a team being cut, Super Rugby is hurting Australian rugby and we have AFL, Rugby League and soccer and more recently basketball and netball and a growing interest in women’s sport to content with.

NZ can do something today that will not be available in say 5 to 6 years. NZ needs to consider where its long term interest lie.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Half so what do you expect NZRU do? Now don't get me wrong ,I am sure regardless of what some posters say they are probably not wanting Aus rugby to fail. NZ rugby is not boss rugby in this neck of the woods, they are only one rugby board amongst 3 (at this stage I not really counting Arg or japan), and aren't you slightly amazed that both Kiap and Dru seem to be blaming Tew for ARU's problems? Look I think agree that expansion of Super rugby hurt rugby, but didn't it get expanded so that Australia and SA could play extra teams? Was it NZRU who wanted that? Do you also notice that there is no mention of SARU, only NZ? Noone here is coming up with a solution,only trying to point the finger. How many of the knowledgeable posters on here were saying no when Aus wanted to expand to 5 teams? Not many there were a couple , but nowhere the number that now it seems knew that, expansion was going to hurt AR, I can tell you,in NZ the general fan thought it was a mistake to ever change S12, hell there are still posters wanting 5 super teams knowing AR can't afford it.
And it not about being a kiwi, I was just wondering why it was thought that NZ should go for a Trans tasman competition to suit Australian rugby, not saying there couldn't or shouldn't be one, but as NZ have a very long history of rugby with SA, I ask why a NZ rugby fan in NZ would say to NZRU we think we should play just Aussie in super rugby, because it suits them.
I ask you a question, do you think many in here would be asking if the roles were reversed?
I do believe it would be good if there is some assistance, but not sure what they can do, and if the average rugby fan in NZ that was generally saying it a mistake to have 5 super teams would then say .....
NZ also has soccer, Rugby League ,basketball, but you know what they (like AFL here) work their arse off to make sure rugby holds it place!
Hell how do countries like England,ireland etc survive? Soccer over there is much much stronger than league etc down here?
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Hell how do countries like England,ireland etc survive? Soccer over there is much much stronger than league etc down here?

Just on this point, the AFL is probably a reasonable equivalent to what soccer is up there, at least throughout Victoria, SA and WA......... although it seems that the Swans are more popular than rugby in Sydney these days.

But up north they have only had one, rather than two or three strong football codes to contend with, and rugby union has generally always been the clear popular no 2 code, which has probably dropped down to 4th in Australia.

Anyways, as for South Africa - I agree that they should shoulder much of the blame for the clusterfuck that was Super Rugby in recent years.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Dan54

Just a couple of points, that they play league and soccer and basketball in NZ implying you too have these issues but you simply work harder. If that’s the thinking in NZ about the level of sporting competition in Australia and the Australian sporting environment then there is little to talk about as Union in Australia is the last of the football codes, well behind cricket we struggle for media coverage even on channels that broadcast us.

Another IMO glaring issue is you said what do you think NZ should do. Again it implies a judgement that with enough shoulders to the wheel our problems will be solved.

I agree with you BTW in that why should NZ put itself out to solve Australian issues especially when you consider our management. However if we fall over and league gets even more influence in the PI nations, NZ rugby folks will write articles saying we should have done something to stop this.

As for SA and we don’t blame them, me thinks that’s like a chip on the shoulder comment. Essentially SA is a basket case with governments interference, spilt across two competitions and facing increasing competition from soccer.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Slim

My read of the Australian sporting environment by state by code.

QLD:- League, Union, Soccer, AFL

NSW:- League, Soccer, Union, AFL

ACT:- League, Union, Soccer, AFL

VIC:- AFL, Soccer, League, Union

SA:- AFL, Soccer, League, Union

WA:- AFL, Soccer, Union, League

NT:- AFL, Soccer, League, Union
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Slim

My read of the Australian sporting environment by state by code.

QLD:- League, Union, Soccer, AFL

NSW:- League, Soccer, Union, AFL

ACT:- League, Union, Soccer, AFL

VIC:- AFL, Soccer, League, Union

SA:- AFL, Soccer, League, Union

WA:- AFL, Soccer, Union, League

NT:- AFL, Soccer, League, Union

In the ACT I would've had rugby union a clear first up until a few years ago, but the two codes are probably on equal footing now, particularly with the Raiders having a boost in success recently - but as they start playing shit again their popularity will quickly fade away, as it began doing last year following the biggest crowds they'd seen in over a decade in 2016.

I'm not sure about participation rates these days though......... I know that rugby union used to be the winner there of the two codes (although both behind soccer which is a national trend).
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Dan54

Just a couple of points, that they play league and soccer and basketball in NZ implying you too have these issues but you simply work harder. If that’s the thinking in NZ about the level of sporting competition in Australia and the Australian sporting environment then there is little to talk about as Union in Australia is the last of the football codes, well behind cricket we struggle for media coverage even on channels that broadcast us.

Another IMO glaring issue is you said what do you think NZ should do. Again it implies a judgement that with enough shoulders to the wheel our problems will be solved.

I agree with you BTW in that why should NZ put itself out to solve Australian issues especially when you consider our management. However if we fall over and league gets even more influence in the PI nations, NZ rugby folks will write articles saying we should have done something to stop this.

As for SA and we don’t blame them, me thinks that’s like a chip on the shoulder comment. Essentially SA is a basket case with governments interference, spilt across two competitions and facing increasing competition from soccer.

I don't disagree in anyway about NZ in some way helping, but I am asking again what do you want them to do? It is a genuine question, not in anyway trying to put down Aus rugby. And really my argument really was the idea that it seems to be NZRU's fault that Aus rugby is where it is. As for not understanding the sports competition here, I don't ,what I keep saying is never use it for an excuse, as soon as we use excuses it means we (and I say we because I have been involved in Aus rugby for most of 20 years I been here)have a reason to stop trying to make it better. And it is a reason I have heard from the day I got here, that it is so hard because of the competition poor us can't do much!! You yourself have brought that very point, because when I came here in the 90s soccer was so poorly supported, so what did the soccer people do? I not sure but though certainly a lot more popular now! I hope you understand my point, and my only point is we have to stop making excuses and stop waiting for NZRU to fix the problems or for Soccer, League or AFL to fall over!
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
I keep coming back to the only answer that I can think of. All stakeholders, at all levels of the game, simply have to accept the reality that we are in a death spiral, and be willing to make sacrifices, and also to work in genuine cooperation, for the greater good.


This will not guarantee success, because as I again point out, of all the factors that influence the likelihood of survival, a majority are just not in our control. Other codes, and the sometimes impenetrable and overly technical rules of our own game in particular. Fortunately, at long last, there are signs of reality starting to emerge on the latter front. As far as the other codes are concerned, I regret to say that for us to survive we will have to play to our comparative strengths, which means building on our existing heartlands and strongholds, and not trying to be all things to all people. Because we never will be, and in trying to be so, we will lose the lot.



Realising all this, accepting it, and working hard together in a a wartime spirit of survival might just get us through.


Would a bit of extra cooperation and assistance from the NZers help? Yes, of course. Would a bit of extra cooperation and assistance from the World body help? Yes, of course.


When the history of rugby is written about in 50 years time, there will obviously be plenty of mistakes on the highlights reel. Ooops. Lowlights.


One might just be the choice to go for the WA option in the first place, instead of the safer Victorian one.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
I couldn't agree more Wamberal about a bit of cooperation form NZRU and maybe WR (World Rugby), but in what way? I actually thought one of the problems was that they cooperated when ARU wanted more teams. If I could think of what NZ could do, I would probably be yelling for it too. I still hoping that someone in here is going to come up with some reasonable ideas that are actually sensible working ones. Do we actually want to drop japan and Argentine? will that help Aus rugby? Or do we expect that SA will also be dropped , which NZ does find unplatable. There has to be positive and reasonable ideas , not just blame other people or to be honest it just contributes to Aus rugby's woes.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Not sure that I would actually like to see it happen, but one step might be to allow All Blacks' eligibility to apply to NZ players in Aus Super teams.
 
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