Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dismal Pillock]

Rebels go. Force stay.

More money in the game.

Wallabies start improving.

2020 a new comp starts with 5 oz teams, Japan, Fiji and perhaps another PI team. Local broadcaster. Prime time tv every week.

SAF head north. Kiwis go "hang on what about us?"

Don’t know why NZ sneer at a trans tasman comp. Theyre about 3 saffa nods and a sly wink from losing all bok teams to Pro 12. And about 3 farts and a pear tree from Aus rugby sorting out the comp detailed above. Well, maybe 4 farts. None of which will come out in a cold wash.

Surely NZRFU realise SA and Aus rugby, with their far larger populations and $$ resources, owe NZ’s popgun economy nothing? They sort their shit out and fuck off then who do we play? OH SHIT. WE’VE VANISHED UP OUR OWN ARSES

Anyway, can the Auckland Blues please join Rugby Reg’s comp? I promise they wont put up much of a fight. Even the Sunwolves can trample the living fuck out of them.

Or even better. Super XI.

Reds
NSFW
Brumbies
Force

Blues
Chiffs
Cantabs
Landers
Canes

Sunwolves
Suva Karvers (carve and kava. Get it? PAT PENDING ON THAT ONE MOFOS)

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Don’t know why NZ sneer at a trans tasman comp. Theyre about 3 saffa nods and a sly wink from losing all bok teams to Pro 12. And about 3 farts and a pear tree from Aus rugby sorting out the comp detailed above. Well, maybe 4 farts. None of which will come out in a cold wash.

Surely NZRFU realise SA and Aus rugby, with their far larger populations and $$ resources, owe NZ’s popgun economy nothing? They sort their shit out and fuck off then who do we play? OH SHIT. WE’VE VANISHED UP OUR OWN ARSES

Anyway, can the Auckland Blues please join Rugby Reg’s comp? I promise they wont put up much of a fight. Even the Sunwolves can trample the living fuck out of them.

Or even better. Super XI.

Reds
NSFW
Brumbies
Force

Blues
Chiffs
Cantabs
Landers
Canes

Sunwolves
Suva Karvers (carve and kava. Get it? PAT PENDING ON THAT ONE MOFOS)

If we lose one and go to four I'd be happy for your structure DP but with a combined PI squad as well. Based somewhere in SE Qld (Qld has the largest PI population in the country apparently).

If anything like Reg's comp materialised and the NZRFU were caught out I'm sure we'd be generous enough to grant NZ lets say two teams in that structure. One Nth Is one Sth.

 

[James Pettifer]

So what's the go with this VRU deal?
Suggestions that it's backed by the state government, which i struggle to believe, what interest does the Vic Govt have in clearing the debts of a professional rugby union team? How long will they be willing to cover ongoing deficits?

This is the state government that spends about $60 million on the Formula 1 race a year and $12 million on the Motorcycle grand prix. I think they can afford a couple of million on rugby.

If they have any sense (ie are not the ARU) then they would impose some financial controls on the business. Of course, they could just do what the WA government does and sponsor the team ...

 

[TOCC]

NZRU would be silly to not be considering the scenario where South African pulls out of Super Rugby in 2020. It may not be a sure thing, but it's clear the next two years will be used as a test to gauge the appetite for European teams in South Africa and conversely South African teams in Europe. I believe it will be a commercial success, if for no other reason then the initial novelty factor.

But come 2020, that will have the broadcasters knocking on their door, and from a financial point of view for the South Africans, it's difficult to see how Super Rugby could eclipse what is on offer from Europe.

If we lose one and go to four I'd be happy for your structure DP but with a combined PI squad as well. Based somewhere in SE Qld (Qld has the largest PI population in the country apparently).

If anything like Reg's comp materialised and the NZRFU were caught out I'm sure we'd be generous enough to grant NZ lets say two teams in that structure. One Nth Is one Sth.

SEQ may have a sizeable PI population, but the difficulty is to monetarise that population and shape it in a way to generate a commercial return. There's plenty of kiwis, poms, saffas and pacific islanders in Melbourne, but still the Rebels struggle to draw a crowd.
I don't think a combined identity is the means to a successful club competition involving the Pacific Islands, each of those countries have their own fantastic identities and thats what's needed to succeed IMO.. If a Fiji team is to succeed, it needs to be based in Fiji,

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

NZRU would be silly to not be considering the scenario where South African pulls out of Super Rugby in 2020. It may not be a sure thing, but it's clear the next two years will be used as a test to gauge the appetite for European teams in South Africa and conversely South African teams in Europe. I believe it will be a commercial success, if for no other reason then the initial novelty factor.

But come 2020, that will have the broadcasters knocking on their door, and from a financial point of view for the South Africans, it's difficult to see how Super Rugby could eclipse what is on offer from Europe.


SEQ may have a sizeable PI population, but the difficulty is to monetarise that population and shape it in a way to generate a commercial return. There's plenty of kiwis, poms, saffas and pacific islanders in Melbourne, but still the Rebels struggle to draw a crowd.
I don't think a combined identity is the means to a successful club competition involving the Pacific Islands, each of those countries have their own fantastic identities and thats what's needed to succeed IMO.. If a Fiji team is to succeed, it needs to be based in Fiji,

I agree. It would be ideal if each of the Islands could host their own teams but outside of Fiji that's really not an option. I was just suggesting it as a means of finding a way to be as inclusive as possible.

Do you think that if Fiji prove successful in the NRC that something like I suggested above could be worthwhile looking at there. Funded by WR (World Rugby) of course.

 

[swingpass]

Cox has, at a minimum, Tim North QC (Quade Cooper) advising him. I am pretty sure they are not going to make such an amateur error such as to forget to enact one of the supposed key requirements to notify the ARU.

The fact they appear not to, suggests the mentioned loophole has been found, opened and jump through.

there is nothing surer that Tim North , QC (Quade Cooper), would be well aware of the Rebels legal position involving such a deal. Even if it is arguable it will tie up the ARU in court well past any cut off date for SANZAR needs to form a super comp next year with only 15 teams. Reading earlier posts it sounds like they have the right to transfer the license if it is debt free, a clause provided by the ARU it seems.

I'm no legal expert Reg, but Tim North is. It seems very unlikely to me that the ARU will be able to get rid of the Rebels without serious reprecussions.

"Tim North QC (Quade Cooper) has more than 30 years extensive and diverse experience in commercial and litigation involving contractual disputes, corporate governance, constitutional law and regulatory review, ........ anti-competitive behaviour involving competition and anti-trust law and practice and procedures relating to Prudential Regulation in Australia. His practice also includes matters relating to conflicts of interest involving ....., partnership disputes, winding-up and insolvency, trade practices .......misconduct regarding procedural fairness of arbitrators, claims of exclusivity .... "

seems to adequately cover it !

 

[TOCC]

I agree. It would be ideal if each of the Islands could host their own teams but outside of Fiji that's really not an option. I was just suggesting it as a means of finding a way to be as inclusive as possible.

Do you think that if Fiji prove successful in the NRC that something like I suggested above could be worthwhile looking at there. Funded by WR (World Rugby) of course.

Absolutely, and i agree there are economic issues preventing Tonga or Samoa getting their own team in the near future, but i think its quite possible for Fiji to get a foothold and at least pave the way for the other two nations..

 

[cyclopath]

Don’t know why NZ sneer at a trans tasman comp. Theyre about 3 saffa nods and a sly wink from losing all bok teams to Pro 12. And about 3 farts and a pear tree from Aus rugby sorting out the comp detailed above. Well, maybe 4 farts. None of which will come out in a cold wash.

Surely NZRFU realise SA and Aus rugby, with their far larger populations and $$ resources, owe NZ’s popgun economy nothing? They sort their shit out and fuck off then who do we play? OH SHIT. WE’VE VANISHED UP OUR OWN ARSES

Anyway, can the Auckland Blues please join Rugby Reg’s comp? I promise they wont put up much of a fight. Even the Sunwolves can trample the living fuck out of them.

Or even better. Super XI.

Reds
NSFW
Brumbies
Force

Blues
Chiffs
Cantabs
Landers
Canes

Sunwolves
Suva Karvers (carve and kava. Get it? PAT PENDING ON THAT ONE MOFOS)

Pitcairn Pillocks. ™

 

[wamberal]

Absolutely, and i agree there are economic issues preventing Tonga or Samoa getting their own team in the near future, but i think its quite possible for Fiji to get a foothold and at least pave the way for the other two nations..

Tonga is an economic basket case. Cannot see that changing in the forseeable future. Pretty sure Samoa is too.

 

[The Honey Badger]

[[/COLOR][/FONT]
Suva Karvers (carve and kava. Get it? PAT PENDING ON THAT ONE MOFOS)

What about the NANDI PANDIES?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Relax, lads.



A little two-way traffic evens up the wear on the road.



But, whatever Cox's motivation, we cannot write off the Rebels just yet. The man taking the reins in his stead, VRU's Tim North, is a Queen's Counsel in his own right.



Might just know what he's doing in this ownership transfer business.



Keep the five alive.

I would be open to keep the five alive if had a plan b.....Financially how could we support 5 teams in Super Rugby with status quo.....

If we end up with 5 teams I think the ARU would be quite right to state that no team will be given any financial bailouts.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Tonga is an economic basket case. Cannot see that changing in the forseeable future. Pretty sure Samoa is too.

yes only possible one is Fiji but allowing players from Tonga and Samoa as pathways into Fijian Super Rugby side.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

If we lose one and go to four I'd be happy for your structure DP but with a combined PI squad as well. Based somewhere in SE Qld (Qld has the largest PI population in the country apparently).



If anything like Reg's comp materialised and the NZRFU were caught out I'm sure we'd be generous enough to grant NZ lets say two teams in that structure. One Nth Is one Sth.

I don't understand why NZRU does not take Oz leaving Super Rugby seriously - as Oz public is deserting it in droves where despite what people say as lesser option forming our own comp based on some of which discussed here will be inevitable. Short term painful but as inevitable with continued decline of interest in Super Rugby doing our own thing can long term be the only sensible thing if NZ don't want to play ball. I seriously think NZRU is underestimating oz public sentiment and lack of support for Super Rugby.

 

[cyclopath]

I don't understand why NZRU does not take Oz leaving Super Rugby seriously - as Oz public is deserting it in droves where despite what people say as lesser option forming our own comp based on some of which discussed here will be inevitable. Short term painful but as inevitable with continued decline of interest in Super Rugby doing our own thing can long term be the only sensible thing if NZ don't want to play ball. I seriously think NZRU is underestimating oz public sentiment and lack of support for Super Rugby.

Look at attendances in NZ - they aint much better, if at all. NZ rugby is in great shape because:-
1. AIG
2. Winning
3. Far better management
in no particular order. Us being crap with 4 or 5 Super Rugby teams with poor attendance and dropping viewership won't affect that in the short term for them.
If, and it's a very big if, Aus left Super Rugby en masse, they might pay attention or care. Until then, I don't think they will.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Look at attendances in NZ - they aint much better, if at all. NZ rugby is in great shape because:-

1. AIG

2. Winning

3. Far better management

in no particular order. Us being crap with 4 or 5 Super Rugby teams with poor attendance and dropping viewership won't affect that in the short term for them.

If, and it's a very big if, Aus left Super Rugby en masse, they might pay attention or care. Until then, I don't think they will.

Just my thoughts.

Which is why we enact the contingency plan and start working towards a competition without NZ.....They come on board...great but we can't sit back and hope they do. As staying in Super Rugby unless radical surgery is not a long term option and time to start investing in a better long term alternative now.

 

[half]

Tis interesting the direction this thread has taken recently i.e looking at legal arguments etc from the positions of various sides and at revenue.

For me this also reflects the ARU in many ways as rugby has become more professional business concerns and objectives have or seem to have risen to the top of the agenda.

For me the future of rugby comes down to a philosophy of what people gauge as important in the list of objectives.

I see two distant philosophies emerging or at play. One philosophy has already won and the outcome will be interesting. The other philosophy IMO would work better but alias is becoming lost in legal and business arguments.

The winning and current philosophy is driven by a cost structure in that you determine your revenue and then apply the revenue to best fit your model. Our model is Super Rugby and thus we need to apply the best fit i.e. Super Rugby teams to revenue / TV ratings etc. Thus the need to go too 4 teams.

My philosophy is to determine the best platforms and structures to grow and develop rugby and then look to fund this model as best you can and have faith in the game and the people involved to develop and grow the game. Over time revenues will increase.

If I was asked my biggest concern about rugby today it is those running the game have lost faith or never had faith in the lower ranks in the game to make decisions in the long term interest of rugby moreover they have only self interest at heart. See the SS sides pissing up beer against the wall.

Further those running rugby have lost faith in the game itself and seem to be self absorbed in measuring the size of their dicks against other codes.

In summary in all the comings and goings we don't seem to have a philosophy were we have faith in the game to develop and expand and essentially trust the game. We seem scared of the other codes and thats IMO whats killing us.

 

[kiap]

I would be open to keep the five alive if had a plan b...Financially how could we support 5 teams in Super Rugby with status quo...

If we end up with 5 teams I think the ARU would be quite right to state that no team will be given any financial bailouts.

There are some genuine avenues possible, such as Vic gov sponsorship, cloning the 'own the team' measure from the west, and so on.

I'd be downsizing the ARU corporate footprint to NZ levels too, for a double windfall, saving millions each year and hiring smaller clowns.

But this is all about tiding over through 2020 here – it's three seasons that matter now for this team – because it will be a whole new ballgame after that.

Whether you're the 17th-placed Rebels or 2nd-placed Crusaders, there will be a reality adjustment coming for all teams at the end of the current TV contract.

Chances are Super Rugby will no longer exist. At a minimum, any pro comp that does emerge will be significantly overhauled.

The Rebels have got to remain alive now to be in the mix for that future competition. If they fold now, it will be very hard for pro rugby in Victoria to return IMO.

 

[KevinO]

Can anyone tell me how this ends well?

I am happy enough to keep 5 teams - despite the current enormity of the task of building depth in Australian rugby.

But I can't see anyway that SANZAAR are now going to turn around and accept a 5th team back into the comp after all parties agreed to the changes.

i can only hope like hell that Pulver negotiated some contingency in the event that they lost a legal challenge to remove a team. This is an amateurish cock up of ridiculous proportions. Whatever the outcome of the arbitration next week, this shit show is far from done.

The sunwolves decide to pull the pin, that article the other day saying they got told they need to improve or their gone was well timed for a chamge as well.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

 

[FiveStarStu]

Totally on board with these thoughts.



However, trying to wipe the Rebels now to get to that point in three years time?



Better to wipe the ARU now instead.



In a perverse way, I would not mind seeing this escalate to a full-on supreme court case.



Pulver submitting answers as testimony.



Even old mate Rob Clarke and good buddy Todd Day would be pulled back in. Resigning won't be enough of a sick note.

Welcome to Team Burn It All Down, we're glad to have you.

 

[ChargerWA]

I would be open to keep the five alive if had a plan b...Financially how could we support 5 teams in Super Rugby with status quo...

If we end up with 5 teams I think the ARU would be quite right to state that no team will be given any financial bailouts.

But they can't, because the first team to need one will be one of the favourite children. Probably the Tahs.

Force and Rebels know whats at stake, they won't allow themselves to be first.