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Reds 2019

B

Bobby Sands

Guest
It sounds as if I am in the minority here, but this is my take, and I am quite bullish to be honest.

As someone who has been involved with rugby quite intimately for a long time, and have in recent years almost deserted the sport, I think that the Reds are in a better position now than they have been for a very long time, minus the Premierships years.

Sound crazy?

Hear me out.

Positives

-Brad Thorn has brought in an uncompromising change of attitude to every facet of preparation & attitude. This has upset the apple cart because we have had piss-poor standards as an organisation for most of this century.
-In all projects and companies, change (executive) always involves more change (of staff). If a new c-suite comes into an ASX-100 company, people inevitably leave, its human nature. Whether they not suit the new structure, be unwilling to change their ways, or because they have a personal issue. Not unique here.
-I believe for the most part that the change we are seeing and hearing about there is "good" change.
-We have a generational amount of young talent at the Reds currently. Blokes like Tupou, Hockings, Korch, Timu, Paenga, Rodda and many more in the wings are genuinely talented young forwards, that have the talent to become world-class. All of them.
-What better forwards mentor than Thorn for both mentality and approach.

My concerns

-Thorn has many strengths, but he also has obvious weaknesses. He style of play is un-nuanced, to say the least and he was badly let down by having Carozza as backs coach this year (his own choice). Carozza is not an elite rugby coach. He is a development coach, and has a decent record in that position of a long-period of time.
-We need an attack / broken play coach (not necessarily a backs coach) that can teach our team to play un-structured rugby to capitalise on the opportunities that present themselves from the core foundations of our new identity (scrum, tight-play, defense (in theory) etc).

Premier Rugby

-Is currently in a very good spot. Ready is a great example of a player who has gone back and been genuinely dominant. Should absolutely come back into the Reds 23.
-Matt Gordon is a very interesting 12 in the Australian landscape as he is excellent in contact (both sides) but also has a deft ball-play and kicking ability. Rare. Sign him.

Other obvious concerns

-We need a 10, and its not going to be Hamish Stewart this early. I also don't think its QC (Quade Cooper), despite liking him personally and appreciate his efforts this season and over his career. Despite what people say, he is actually a very loyal, humble person. But not the answer in my opinion.
-Who is? To'omua would have been perfect. But someone I would seriously be looking at is Sam Greene. He was terribly developed in QLD and has an enormous scope.
-Liam Wright is a very talented player, but he is a 6. So is Korch, so is a lot of our young backrow talent. QLD rugby identity relies on having a quality 7, its in our DNA. Michael Gunn is not that player.
-I would love to see Liam Gill come back, because he is QLD to his core when he is not drinking like a fish, but we need to scout the land for a quality young 7. Kibble may be that man, Fraser McReight might be another, but I am not certain. We need to find one, as we have missed on our last few attempts.

Summary

We have the nucleus of a VERY good side here, our young tight 5 talent alone is quite incredible. Our backrow talent is unbalanced, but at the same time littered with talent. The backline is much more of a concern, but our halfback talent is encouraging. Hamish Stewart is an excellent prospect, but it would be a disservice to him to hand him the keys to the ship right now in his career as they did to both Berrick Barnes and QC (Quade Cooper). Its not what good teams do.

Our talent in the centre is great. Duncan, CFS, and Petaia are all very good prospects. I am not sure what Kerevi is doing, but he obviosuly has world-class attributes, but I also feel his game has stagnated a bit in terms of becoming a world-class centre. Be that 12 or 13. His ball-playing is non-existent, he doesn't understand space and makes poor reads in defense.

Our back three talent is poor to be honest. Maranta, Daungunu (controversial), Nabuli etc are not up to it in my opinion. Perese is a genuine talent, but if his heart is not in it, he can't be there. QLD was once stacked with back three talent so I can't make sense of this dearth of available talent. I am sure they are out there, lets bring them home. Tom Banks, Muirhead, Jesse Mogg even, come to mind.

I have not re-read this, and won't have a chance because this has already taken too much time from my work day, but feel free to pick this apart or do whatever it is that people do on forums. But overall I am bullish about QLD rugby, but think we are in an unusual spot. We have the makings of a great pack, and have a poor backline which is weird, but this inverting of protocol is easier fixed than the opposite. Don't lose sight of that.

BS
 

TheNorth

Allen Oxlade (6)
NPC at this stage...


Fantastic players at NRC level but never seemed to really kick on in super rugby.

But I do feel any of his short comings are the areas which NZ rugby calls strengths. So I imagine this will be a good move for his development as he is still young in propping years
 

Rugrat

Darby Loudon (17)
With the very low crowd numbers this seasoon, a request for and granted advance from the ARU for cash flow purposes, possibly unpaid sponsorship fees, big wages for players not playing and a long time before anymore revenue comes in. Maybe the Reds can’t actually afford to sign anyone new or keep anyone that wants more coin. Keeping the lights on might be the priority. Hope it’s not the case but they would have to be struggling.
 

SouthernX

John Thornett (49)
With the very low crowd numbers this seasoon, a request for and granted advance from the ARU for cash flow purposes, possibly unpaid sponsorship fees, big wages for players not playing and a long time before anymore revenue comes in. Maybe the Reds can’t actually afford to sign anyone new or keep anyone that wants more coin. Keeping the lights on might be the priority. Hope it’s not the case but they would have to be struggling.

I have thought this too. The reds have had one signing this offseason. The flyhalf at Brisbane boys college.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
It sounds as if I am in the minority here, but this is my take, and I am quite bullish to be honest.

As someone who has been involved with rugby quite intimately for a long time, and have in recent years almost deserted the sport, I think that the Reds are in a better position now than they have been for a very long time, minus the Premierships years.

Sound crazy?

Hear me out.

Positives

-Brad Thorn has brought in an uncompromising change of attitude to every facet of preparation & attitude. This has upset the apple cart because we have had piss-poor standards as an organisation for most of this century.
-In all projects and companies, change (executive) always involves more change (of staff). If a new c-suite comes into an ASX-100 company, people inevitably leave, its human nature. Whether they not suit the new structure, be unwilling to change their ways, or because they have a personal issue. Not unique here.
-I believe for the most part that the change we are seeing and hearing about there is "good" change.
-We have a generational amount of young talent at the Reds currently. Blokes like Tupou, Hockings, Korch, Timu, Paenga, Rodda and many more in the wings are genuinely talented young forwards, that have the talent to become world-class. All of them.
-What better forwards mentor than Thorn for both mentality and approach.

My concerns

-Thorn has many strengths, but he also has obvious weaknesses. He style of play is un-nuanced, to say the least and he was badly let down by having Carozza as backs coach this year (his own choice). Carozza is not an elite rugby coach. He is a development coach, and has a decent record in that position of a long-period of time.
-We need an attack / broken play coach (not necessarily a backs coach) that can teach our team to play un-structured rugby to capitalise on the opportunities that present themselves from the core foundations of our new identity (scrum, tight-play, defense (in theory) etc).

Premier Rugby

-Is currently in a very good spot. Ready is a great example of a player who has gone back and been genuinely dominant. Should absolutely come back into the Reds 23.
-Matt Gordon is a very interesting 12 in the Australian landscape as he is excellent in contact (both sides) but also has a deft ball-play and kicking ability. Rare. Sign him.

Other obvious concerns

-We need a 10, and its not going to be Hamish Stewart this early. I also don't think its QC (Quade Cooper), despite liking him personally and appreciate his efforts this season and over his career. Despite what people say, he is actually a very loyal, humble person. But not the answer in my opinion.
-Who is? To'omua would have been perfect. But someone I would seriously be looking at is Sam Greene. He was terribly developed in QLD and has an enormous scope.
-Liam Wright is a very talented player, but he is a 6. So is Korch, so is a lot of our young backrow talent. QLD rugby identity relies on having a quality 7, its in our DNA. Michael Gunn is not that player.
-I would love to see Liam Gill come back, because he is QLD to his core when he is not drinking like a fish, but we need to scout the land for a quality young 7. Kibble may be that man, Fraser McReight might be another, but I am not certain. We need to find one, as we have missed on our last few attempts.

Summary

We have the nucleus of a VERY good side here, our young tight 5 talent alone is quite incredible. Our backrow talent is unbalanced, but at the same time littered with talent. The backline is much more of a concern, but our halfback talent is encouraging. Hamish Stewart is an excellent prospect, but it would be a disservice to him to hand him the keys to the ship right now in his career as they did to both Berrick Barnes and QC (Quade Cooper). Its not what good teams do.

Our talent in the centre is great. Duncan, CFS, and Petaia are all very good prospects. I am not sure what Kerevi is doing, but he obviosuly has world-class attributes, but I also feel his game has stagnated a bit in terms of becoming a world-class centre. Be that 12 or 13. His ball-playing is non-existent, he doesn't understand space and makes poor reads in defense.

Our back three talent is poor to be honest. Maranta, Daungunu (controversial), Nabuli etc are not up to it in my opinion. Perese is a genuine talent, but if his heart is not in it, he can't be there. QLD was once stacked with back three talent so I can't make sense of this dearth of available talent. I am sure they are out there, lets bring them home. Tom Banks, Muirhead, Jesse Mogg even, come to mind.

I have not re-read this, and won't have a chance because this has already taken too much time from my work day, but feel free to pick this apart or do whatever it is that people do on forums. But overall I am bullish about QLD rugby, but think we are in an unusual spot. We have the makings of a great pack, and have a poor backline which is weird, but this inverting of protocol is easier fixed than the opposite. Don't lose sight of that.

BS
Yes I actually find it hard to see why such doom and gloom as lot of good young players blooded and improvement made on last season after some dramas with hunt and slipper and losing them.

I don’t think thorn is perfect but for rookie coach did alright and is strong character that will improve. I think many are just struggling with him being a strong character but long term I think that can only benefit the reds.

I will disappear as seems to be a wave of anti thorn folk here but i would be careful what you wish for re: getting rid of thorn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
Not specifically anti-thorn. Very much years of downward trend and yet another expectation that it would reverse. Failed.

The Reds show all the signs of being completely dysfunctional. If what Thorn has done was expected then the blokes who employed him have cast a vote of "no confidence" in their own ability. Or are incompetent.

If you can't see the problems I don't know how to explain them.

but i would be careful what you wish for re: getting rid of thorn

This but I agree with. But things are so poor something big must give. And Brad must wear the consequences of his own actions.

Personally, I'd hold on to him if I could. But not at the expense of Cooper, Hunt, Slipper. And he'd be given firm advice direction around where to apply his personal convictions and about playing the role professionally not personally.

Edit language (too much wine)

Thorn needs to prove an ability to hold onto players. If he can't he fail a major KPI and we find another.
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
OK the hammer came down NOT on my post - but in response to it. I've deleted the couple of posts leading to it.

Cyclo, honestly that was not where I thought I was taking the thread, though my challenge should have actually been a report. Sorry.

And kudos that you were this much on the ball.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
OK the hammer came down NOT on my post - but in response to it. I've deleted the couple of posts leading to it.

Cyclo, honestly that was not where I thought I was taking the thread, though my challenge should have actually been a report. Sorry.

And kudos that you were this much on the ball.

You had not to that point, but it seemed a possible, and unfortunate, destination.
 
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TSR

Andrew Slack (58)
Yet they work their arse off for Wallabies? Dont buy this.
It’s not actually the first time I’ve heard this. That doesn’t make it true, but I had been told that Stiles would not succeed because the players had a poor work ethic and he couldn’t break the stranglehold of the senior player group.

If it is/was true I see it as being very possible that the same players knew they couldn’t get away with that with Cheika. I’ve seen that sort of behaviour plenty of times before.

It’s also not hard to imagine that if Thorn has turned things on their head he has upset a lot of people and threatened a lot of vested interests. It doesn’t actually mean it’s a bad thing.

Essentially it’s all gossip and speculation really - i couldn’t even tell you if my source was credible. I do know he was closely enough involved that he could have been, but some guys can’t help themselves either.

I hope we don’t see wholesale changes. I feel there is genuine potential in the group. But, regardless of the merit or otherwise of his approach, if Thorn has lost the group he is a deadman walking. If he has only lost a few key individuals the he might just be okay.
 

redhead

Herbert Moran (7)
I was only making a point that those who did not want to work hard were already left behind by Brad at the beginning. Nothing else. You cant take away from him that he sticks to his principles and players. Most of them are his "projects" as he called them in one if his interview came from U20 and Country teams. I guess those currently on the outer will have to make decision sooner or later.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
I had been told that Stiles would not succeed because the players had a poor work ethic and he couldn’t break the stranglehold of the senior player group.

If it is/was true I see it as being very possible that the same players knew they couldn’t get away with that with Cheika. I’ve seen that sort of behaviour plenty of times before.

It’s also not hard to imagine that if Thorn has turned things on their head he has upset a lot of people and threatened a lot of vested interests. It doesn’t actually mean it’s a bad thing.

Yep.

And, fact is, the senior player group have under-performed for many a year. But let's say the Reds get a new acquiescing coach. They go back to the Cooper-KHunt 10-15 axis running the show.

Looks good on paper, right?

It's Auckland Blues good.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Coaches and others can easily say words. The trick is to implement great culture with good skills on the field and off it. This is a professional era.
There is no place for fundamentalist personal views whether influenced by religious views or slated by personal family experiences.

It will be a long road back for the Reds under current administration and coaching staff.
 

TSR

Andrew Slack (58)
Coaches and others can easily say words. The trick is to implement great culture with good skills on the field and off it. This is a professional era.
There is no place for fundamentalist personal views whether influenced by religious views or slated by personal family experiences.

It will be a long road back for the Reds under current administration and coaching staff.
Yeah, of course Scrubber. Talk is always cheap. But, from my view, Thorn’s problem is not what he is saying but the extent to which he is taking the ‘no dickheads’ (for want of a better description) policy.

For what it’s worth I don’t really agree with a ‘zero tolerance’ approach - these guys are human beings after all. However with so much rumour and speculation doing the rounds anyway I didn’t see the harm in floating what I had heard.
 
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