2012 S15 All things Referee thread

[Hawko]

Havent watch all the matches but the few I watched the scrum penalties was a disaster in round 1. Still see to many fatties head scratching and not the good hit and binding from them. The Hurricanes scrum was a total vokop.

Yeah but the Hurricanes scrum this year will be smashed by just about everyone except the Rebels. I haven't rewatched the Tahs/Reds game yet but I didn't think there were that many unnecessary penalties. I thought Peyper went OK in that area.

 

[suckerforred]

Havent watch all the matches but the few I watched the scrum penalties was a disaster in round 1. Still see to many fatties head scratching and not the good hit and binding from them. The Hurricanes scrum was a total vokop.

Haven't watched them all either but I didn't think they were that bad. Haven't seen anything of the Cane's game though. I think there seemed to be fewer resets in the games I watched, which is always good.

One thing I will say is that I was quite impressed with Peyper (I know it's not spelt right). Yeah there were a few calls that may have gone either way, but I think he did control the game well. Edit - Hawko beat me to the punch.

 

[PaarlBok]

5.Saturday 25 February Waratahs v Reds Sydney 19:40 Jaco Peyper

Glad he did not disappointed. He can be strict but at least he is consystant in doing his business and thats all you can ask from any ref.

I rewatch the Stormers vs Canes match and the Canes were just stupid scrumtime. Jonker penalised them no ends at scrums for binding and just stupid stuff they have done. Can see the rewards from Balie's scrum session with them.

 

[PaarlBok]

Super Rugby Match Officials Rd.2.
Match No.8: Chiefs v Blues
Date Friday 2 March
Venue : Hamilton
Kick Off local: 19:35
Referee: Keith Brown
Assistant Ref 1:Jonathon White
Assistant Ref 2:Richard Kelly
TMO : Nick Briant
Match No.9: Rebels v Waratahs
Date: Friday 2 March
Venue : Melbourne
Kick Off local: 19:40
Referee: Bryce Lawrence
Assistant Ref 1:Andrew Lees
Assistant Ref 2:Angus Gardner
TMO : Matt Goddard
Match No.10: Lions v Hurricanes
Date Friday 2 March
Venue : Johannesburg
Kick Off local: 19:10
Referee: Steve Walsh
Assistant Ref 1:Lourens VD Merwe
Assistant Ref 2:Ben Crouse
TMO : Shaun Veldsman
Match No.11: Highlanders v Crusaders
Date Saturday 3 March
Venue : Dunedin
Kick Off local: 19:35
Referee: Jaco Peyper
Assistant Ref 1:Vinny Munro
Assistant Ref 2: Kane McBride
TMO : Keith Brown
Match No.12: Reds v Force
Date Saturday 3 March
Venue : Brisbane
Kick Off local: 18:40
Referee: Glen Jackson
Assistant Ref 1:Ian Smith
Assistant Ref 2:Simon Moore
TMO : Steve Leszczynski
Match No.13: Cheetahs v Bulls
Date Saturday 3 March
Venue : Bloemfontein
Kick Off local: 17:05
Referee: Craig Joubert
Assistant Ref 1:Marius Jonker
Assistant Ref 2:Reuben Roussouw
TMO : Johann Meuwesen
Match No.14: Stormers Sharks
Date Saturday 3 March
Venue : Cape Town
Kick Off local: 19:10
Referee: Mark Lawrence
Assistant Ref 1: Jason Jatha
Assistant Ref 2:Christie Du Preez
TMO : Gerrie Coetzee
http://www.superxv.com/news/super15_rugby_news.asp?id=34048

 

[spooony]

Bray's targets

Lyndon Bray, SANZAR's refereeing boss, and his group of advisers have set the referees targets to get Super Rugby moving better than ever. Let's look at how close the referees are to the targets after Week 1 of Super Rugby.

At the same time we shall look at Six Nations comparisons from the weekend.

The targets concerned the two main problem areas in rugby - the scrum and the tackle. We shall look first at the scrum.

Scrum - 70% goal

Bray: "The scrum is one of our real problem areas. We want to try and get to 70% of scrums actually completed on the first hit. What that means is that when we form a scrum we get through the four calls and we get the ball out.

"That 70% is a lofty goal because last year we were down to between 45% and 50% of scrums completed on the first hit."

*NB straight out includes scrums that collapsed but play went on.

Super 15, Week 1

Blues Crusaders: 15 scrums, 10 straight out: 67%. (4 resets, 4 collapses, 1 penalty)
Brumbies vs Force: 14 scrums, 11 straight out: 80% (4 resets, 4 collapses)
Waratahs vs Reds: 12 scrums, 7 straight out: 58% (2 resets, 5 collapses, 3 penalties)
Bulls vs Sharks: 17 scrums, 13 straight out: 77% (0 resets, 4 collapses, 4 penalties)
Chiefs vs Highlanders: 10 Scrums, 8 straight out: 80% (2 resets, 1 collapse). We have not counted two uncontested scrums
Stormers vs Hurricanes: 11 scrums, 3 straight out: 27% (3 resets, 5 collapses, 6 penalties, 1 free kick)
Lions vs Cheetahs: 10 scrums, 8 straight out: 80% (0 resets, 2 collapses, 2 penalties)

Totals: 89 scrums, 60 straight out: 67% (19 resets, 25 collapses, 16 penalties, 1 free kick)

Six Nations, Week 3

Ireland vs Italy: 13 scrums, 6 straight out: 39% (4 resets, 5 collapses, 5 penalties, 1 free kick)
England vs Wales: 6 scrums, 1 straight out: 17% (5 resets, 6 collapses, 2 penalties)
Scotland vs France: 15 scrums, 2 straight out: 13% (5 resets, 5 collapses, 4 penalties, 3 free kicks)

Totals: 34 scrums, 9 straight out: 26% (14 resets, 16 collapses, 11 penalties, 4 free kicks.

The Super Rugby 'success rate' is far greater than that of the Six Nations and close to the 70% set.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2851604.htm

 

[Hawko]

Geez I wish I knew more about how they decide who will ref which team. For the Waratahs, the two worst referees and the worst assistant are Kaplan, Bryce Lawrence and Ian Smith. That seems to guarantee that we will get them two or three times a season each! Last week the crucial decision was the forward pass made by Smith, now publicly dissavowed by Bray. This week we get Bryce Lawrence, the random decision generator. Kaplan can't be far away.

Peyper gets the Crusaders/Highlanders match. He seems very much to be a referee on the rise. He went OK last week in a difficult match with poor assistants. He didn't get everything right but who can?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Bray's assessment of whether it was forward is no more worthy of credence than yours or mine and, unless it is based on only seeing the pass in real time from the same location as Lawrence (which,axiomatically, it cant be) is an utter irrelevancy simply by virtue of the fact that the officials did not have the luxury of replays and time for reflection.
It is ridiculous to complain that the allocation of referees is not fair: teams need to have a mode of play and an approach that accommodates the varying personalities - its not hard to do and it is part of being a team worthy of success at this level.
Having said that my long term view of Kaplan is (a) he doesn't like smart arses (b) he favours the team with the dominant forward pack. (a) is easily controlled. As for (b) the Tahs have a dominant pack and (off the top of my head) I would think they have generally done well under Kaplan: the Wallabies have rarely done well under him and I believe that comes back to his being subliminally impressed with dominant packs.
Lawrence is every body's whipping boy - the pass last week was open to be called the way it was particularly given the relative movement of the players concerned.

 

[philsale]

I'm working on a theory that Walsh's scrum calls can be predicted by looking at his patterns of manipulation of his hair and beard. Seemed to fit pretty well at the REBvCRU trial...

 

[Forcefield]

As for (b) the Tahs have a dominant pack and (off the top of my head) I would think they have generally done well under Kaplan: the Wallabies have rarely done well under him and I believe that comes back to his being subliminally impressed with dominant packs.

Have a look at the stats. Waratah wins with all referees excluding Kaplan vs Waratah wins with Kaplan. It's something like 75% vs 25%. Something is up there. Maybe like the rest of Australia Kaplan just hates the Tahs. Refer to (a).

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Have a look at the stats. Waratah wins with all referees excluding Kaplan vs Waratah wins with Kaplan. It's something like 75% vs 25%. Something is up there. Maybe like the rest of Australia Kaplan just hates the Tahs. Refer to (a).

May need to break that down on the basis of who was playing tight head in the game he reffed that the Tahs lost...but I am surprised to read that is the case.

 

[Hawko]

Bray's assessment of whether it was forward is no more worthy of credence than yours or mine and, unless it is based on only seeing the pass in real time from the same location as Lawrence (which,axiomatically, it cant be) is an utter irrelevancy simply by virtue of the fact that the officials did not have the luxury of replays and time for reflection.
It is ridiculous to complain that the allocation of referees is not fair: teams need to have a mode of play and an approach that accommodates the varying personalities - its not hard to do and it is part of being a team worthy of success at this level.
Having said that my long term view of Kaplan is (a) he doesn't like smart arses (b) he favours the team with the dominant forward pack. (a) is easily controlled. As for (b) the Tahs have a dominant pack and (off the top of my head) I would think they have generally done well under Kaplan: the Wallabies have rarely done well under him and I believe that comes back to his being subliminally impressed with dominant packs.
Lawrence is every body's whipping boy - the pass last week was open to be called the way it was particularly given the relative movement of the players concerned.

If you call 16 losses and 2 wins doing well then all power to you! There are whole threads on G&GR about how Kaplan has repeatedly screwed the Waratahs.

The Waratahs have an over 55% win percentage with all referees over Kaplan's time as a referee in Super Rugby. Under Kaplan the win percentage is 11%. If you've done any statistics you'll understand that this is not some sort of random anomaly, the variability is just too great.

 

[spooony]

If you call 16 losses and 2 wins doing well then all power to you! There are whole threads on G&GR about how Kaplan has repeatedly screwed the Waratahs.

The Waratahs have an over 55% win percentage with all referees over Kaplan's time as a referee in Super Rugby. Under Kaplan the win percentage is 11%. If you've done any statistics you'll understand that this is not some sort of random anomaly, the variability is just too great.

Reload. Do you know what that mean? Do not blame the ref for a ill discipline team. Why would he favor one Australia team over another when he is a professional ref that earn his bread and butter as well as getting monitored and rated by his bosses. If you think he was unfair please post the incident that you think he was wrong to backup the claims.

He needs to make split second interpretations of hundreds of laws over and over again during the course of 80 minutes and he is right next to the action.

 

[Hawko]

Reload. Do you know what that mean? Do not blame the ref for a ill discipline team. Why would he favor one Australia team over another when he is a professional ref that earn his bread and butter as well as getting monitored and rated by his bosses. If you think he was unfair please post the incident that you think he was wrong to backup the claims.

I'll try again, one last time. Its not that I'm blaming the ref for an ill-disciplined team. With all referees over the last eight or so years the Tahs win significantly more than 50% of their games. But when Kaplan is the referee they win just 11% of the time and lose 89% of the time. The key question is "Why is the Tahs record under Kaplan so different to the Tahs record under every other referee?" Its not just some random accident, the difference is statistically significant.

I suggest you go back through the 18 games and try and find some rational reason why the Tahs win just 11% of the time. Trust me, its not because of team ill-discipline.

 

[spooony]

I'll try again, one last time. Its not that I'm blaming the ref for an ill-disciplined team. With all referees over the last eight or so years the Tahs win significantly more than 50% of their games. But when Kaplan is the referee they win just 11% of the time and lose 89% of the time. The key question is "Why is the Tahs record under Kaplan so different to the Tahs record under every other referee?" Its not just some random accident, the difference is statistically significant.

I suggest you go back through the 18 games and try and find some rational reason why the Tahs win just 11% of the time. Trust me, its not because of team ill-discipline.

Ah ok. I see what you mean. The games he did referee for them against who were they? Were they top 4 opponents or middle to bottom table players and where were the games played at?

 

[suckerforred]

Reload. Do you know what that mean? Do not blame the ref for a ill discipline team. Why would he favor one Australia team over another when he is a professional ref that earn his bread and butter as well as getting monitored and rated by his bosses. If you think he was unfair please post the incident that you think he was wrong to backup the claims.

He needs to make split second interpretations of hundreds of laws over and over again during the course of 80 minutes and he is right next to the action.

Being a Boke supporter spoony, should I mention Byrce??????

Friday Fishing.

 

[elementfreak]

I'm working on a theory that Walsh's scrum calls can be predicted by looking at his patterns of manipulation of his hair and beard. Seemed to fit pretty well at the REBvCRU trial...

What are his "triggers" then?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I'll try again, one last time. Its not that I'm blaming the ref for an ill-disciplined team. With all referees over the last eight or so years the Tahs win significantly more than 50% of their games. But when Kaplan is the referee they win just 11% of the time and lose 89% of the time. The key question is "Why is the Tahs record under Kaplan so different to the Tahs record under every other referee?" Its not just some random accident, the difference is statistically significant.

I suggest you go back through the 18 games and try and find some rational reason why the Tahs win just 11% of the time. Trust me, its not because of team ill-discipline.

Has anyone looked at the stats for all Australian teams under Kaplan?
At test level I have always felt he doesnt like us - his rulings may be technically correct but they seem to come down harder on us.
On the other hand that may reflect my skin in tests which, thanks to therapy, I no longer have when the Tahs are playing.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

You guys may as well argue that all teams Kaplan referees win about 50% of the time (or whatever), except for the tahs. Therefore the Tahs are letting Kaplan down and making him look bias.

Correlation doesn't equal causation. Need something more precise to accuse him of being poor or an inconsistent ref.

 

[spooony]

Being a Boke supporter spoony, should I mention Byrce??????

Friday Fishing.

What about him? Have no problem with him. He did not cost us the game. We can only blame ourselves and our tactics honestly

 

[suckerforred]

What about him? Have no problem with him. He did not cost us the game. We can only blame ourselves and our tactics honestly

WOW! I would have to say that is the first bok supporter that I have said that. Thanks.