Shute Shield 2013

[sidelinesid]

Every time the NSW teams have been dominated by one club they have underperformed.
Stag is on the money.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

If the above isn't stupid enough I just noticed that Stephen Hoiles who hasn't played for 2 years and came off the bench in 2nd grade was hit with 20 player points !!!

Surely that can't be right when we've got current S15 players and recent test players with 0 points???

He's been with Randwick since under 10's why hasn't he got a 100% discount or does that only apply to Uni who have no juniors?????

Yours sincerely,
Really pissed off now !!!

Coach, perhaps it was Randwick's error for making him 20 points and not the system itself. Under the discounts available, they can knock off a point for every year since he's been a professional or they could knock off 100% if he's played 5 seasons with the club.

Agree the system is not perfect, but let's make sure we have the right target in our sights before pulling the trigger

 

[Late Starter]

I notice that all 3 of Eastwood's lower grade games this weekend have been moved to TG Milner and likewise Manly 2s and 3s have been moved to Manly oval. West Harbour as well in the bottom half of the finals draw have 3 grades at home. I understand the logic in trying to have all grades from the same club play at the same venue however the SRU obviously don't think neutral venues should come into consideration.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I can't help but draw parallels between the lopsided Shute Shield and the failure over the last 10 years of our Super Rugby provinces and the Wallabies.

University have been incredibly successful over that period, and have provided a bulk of the players moving into the professional ranks. Eastwood and Manly have similarly performed well during that time. These clubs have rightly looked forward to matches against eachother as being season-defining, there being no other sustained competition.

But I wonder whether it may have produced kids who have never had to really fight week to week, and have always had the best available coaches and facilities. When push comes to shove in the Super finals we have no mongrel, and the Test on Saturday just emphasises the point.

I have previously acknowledged on these pages that Sydney Uni has a lot to answer for, including global warming and the current obsession with waxing, but you've identified yet another area where they are contributing to the downfall of civilisation as we know it, Stag.

Thinking back to "the Super finals", where Australia was represented by the Reds and Brumbies, and "the Test on Saturday", I have to admit that these players "who have never had to really fight week to week" didn't exactly distinguish themselves. In fact it was almost as if the Sydney Uni players weren't there.
.

 

[Stag XV]

I have previously acknowledged on these pages that Sydney Uni has a lot to answer for, including global warming and the current obsession with waxing, but you've identified yet another area where they are contributing to the downfall of civilisation as we know it, Stag.

Thinking back to "the Super finals", where Australia was represented by the Reds and Brumbies, and "the Test on Saturday", I have to admit that these players "who have never had to really fight week to week" didn't exactly distinguish themselves. In fact it was almost as if the Sydney Uni players weren't there.
.

Bruce, I was not labelling Uni (or Eastwood & Manly for that matter - I did mention other clubs) as the reason for Australia's failure on the provincial and international level.

My point was not that any club or province was entirely to blame, but an observation that the way we seem to concentrate player strength to so few clubs has meant that our players on the whole have not learnt how to win against the best.

As you say there wasn't a pronounced Uni flavour in the Wallaby side from the weekend, but the fact that Michael Hooper et. al. only get a tough game when they play their 2-3 games against Uni or Eastwood may explain our difficulty when stepping up to the next level.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

But Micheal Hooper et al only get to play 2-3 games down in clubland.

The rest of the time they are in the hard arse world of Professional Rugby.

 

[Stag XV]

But Micheal Hooper et al only get to play 2-3 games down in clubland.

The rest of the time they are in the hard arse world of Professional Rugby.

True, but how many Super players receive their contracts based on their highlight reels from playing against the struggling Shute Shield clubs?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think the point about Uni players not dominating at a higher level is well made and it's something that has also crossed my mind over the last year or so. As good as these guys are, there aren't actually that many of them who truly step up at Super or Test level and make a name for themselves. The word "tradesmanlike" is the one that springs most readily to mind, especially in the forwards. I'm a fan of guys like Davidson, McCalman and Dennis for their work ethic and desire, but they don't seem to have the impact on the game at a higher level that you would expect from their club pedigree.

I liken it a bit to a number of Canterbury players who turned out for the All Blacks about a decade or so ago. The Crusaders were dominating Super rugby and Canterbury the NPC, so it seemed logical (to some anyway) for them to dominate AB selections. The problem was that they weren't able to make the step up as readily to test level. I'm thinking of guys like Caleb Ralph and Ruben Thorn.

This isn't in any way a knock on the Uni system, if anything it's a testament to it. I just find it odd that the last (nearly) ten years of Uni dominance of the SS hasn't produced the number of world class players I would have expected. What it seems to do is to take middle of the range players and make them as good as they can be, but perhaps that just isn't quite good enough. I know it's a different era, but think back to when Randwick dominated the SS. They could field a very worthy test team in first grade, one that would be good enough to beat a lot of international sides. I wouldn't back Uni to do the same necessarily.

 

[Dave Beat]

Change of topic, Game Plan to beat Uni thread.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I reckon that at full strength and full fitness, the Sydney Uni team would probably roll most Super Rugby teams, but as you say that is for another thread.

An interesting side note to your observations about the Canterbury players inability to step up to the next level. Maybe it is a thing with the water there, because Coaches from that era from that area have also struggled with the transition to International level .

 

[Bowside]

Even at full strength I reckon Sydney Uni would struggle against super rugby sides.

For what it's worth, full strength Sunnybank would have to be close to the best club side in the country. PAE, Anae, Holmes, Simmons, AWH, Ah Wong, Gill, Shatz, Lucas x 2, Kingi, Tapuai, Ioane. Plus a few Samoan Internationals.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The prospect of the best in Sydney taking on the best in Brissie has been tried from time to time, but of late one or both teams have ended up either deliberately or accidentally not being able to field a full strength side, and the game has proved little.

Surgery deferred from the season is undertaken as soon as Grand finals are over so they will be ready for their Soup Pre-seasons, holidays, RUPA restrictions on no of games, and international duties all mitigate against having the best available for both clubs.

 

[Pete King]

The dominance of uni is killing club rugby, fact. Sure a great program but backed by money and scholarships that cant be matched by other clubs. Something has to be done.

 

[howyagoin]

^^^ Maybe the mandarins at SRU are p***d off that he went across the border to play for the Ponies, and this is their way to get back at him.

I wouldn't put such pettiness past the Heavy Hitters from Rugby's Underground.

You are right the coach. Something needs to be done about the points system, but what?

Most proposals put forward on this thread have loopholes that would be exploited by the clubs.

Not that I can quote an example, but should Uni be penalised for a loyal player such as Phil Waugh who may not have been a Petersham or Canturbury Junior, but has been with them for ever. Forcing players to change clubs because they have too many points would undermine some of the traditional values of Clubland.

Phil Waugh was a Warringah junior & obviously
Left for the scholarship so Uni should be penalised the whole points cap whenever he played due to not being 'developed' as such by them

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I really question how much development occurs in the Juniors ranks, and especially how much of that can be attributed to the District Club, especially when related to the years Under 6 - Under 15 (when many boys disappear into the Schools rugby world).

If anything many kids have been held back by what they have been "taught" and where they have been played in the early junior system, and the District Club has only paid any attention to any of the boys in the two trial games (if they are lucky) and the State Championship weekend. With the odd exception, most of the State championships teams are coached by enthusiastic Dads from village clubland with little direct coaching input and development from the District club.

 

[Retired Fatty]

Sorry not really up to speed with how the points cap works but would it not work better if instead of years with the club it reduced in proportion with the number of games played - 1 point for every X club games played? Not sure what X should be as I don't know how many points you get for what level of player.

A Super player signing for a new club and only playing a few games a year of SS would then take a considerable time to work off their points rather than getting credit for seasons of service when they may not play a club game at all.

 

[the coach]

Coach, perhaps it was Randwick's error for making him 20 points and not the system itself. Under the discounts available, they can knock off a point for every year since he's been a professional or they could knock off 100% if he's played 5 seasons with the club.

Agree the system is not perfect, but let's make sure we have the right target in our sights before pulling the trigger

Belly, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek as I do understand that the clubs fill out the registration forms. But the NSWRU can override the points if insufficient evidence is provided. Whether it was Randwicks fault or not I really was just trying to underline the fact that the system sucks and this looked like a convenient example.

 

[Goldust]

Sitting around wanting uni to get worse is not the answer. Frankly they won't and if any other club in the comp had their resources they would be doing exactly the same thing. My greatest concern is where to all the kids who leave colts at Uni end up? Surely they don't all filter into grade? Every year they have the brightest talent move into grade but it is impossible to accommodate them all. I fear they are lost to the game which is the greatest shame. All clubs have players who drift away from the game after colts who should stick around as development comes later for some. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but where are these players going? Are they giving it away?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Sitting around wanting uni to get worse is not the answer. Frankly they won't and if any other club in the comp had their resources they would be doing exactly the same thing. My greatest concern is where to all the kids who leave colts at Uni end up? Surely they don't all filter into grade? Every year they have the brightest talent move into grade but it is impossible to accommodate them all. I fear they are lost to the game which is the greatest shame. All clubs have players who drift away from the game after colts who should stick around as development comes later for some. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but where are these players going? Are they giving it away?

I certainly don't want Uni to be weakened. On the contrary, I want the other clubs to get stronger and improve the competition. It has the rather handy knock on effect (pardon the pun) of broadening the base for our player stocks, which can't be a bad thing.

 

[The Galah]

Sitting around wanting uni to get worse is not the answer. Frankly they won't and if any other club in the comp had their resources they would be doing exactly the same thing. My greatest concern is where to all the kids who leave colts at Uni end up? Surely they don't all filter into grade? Every year they have the brightest talent move into grade but it is impossible to accommodate them all. I fear they are lost to the game which is the greatest shame. All clubs have players who drift away from the game after colts who should stick around as development comes later for some. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but where are these players going? Are they giving it away?

Presumably well educated but suddenly time poor they drift into the professions to do social good or more likely into fabulously well connected roles in the finance sector like some very influential former players in administrator land to perpetuate the cycle of privilege and plunder !