Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
In order to gain an unfair advantage in a sporting contest.
School sporting scholarships/recruitment
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Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
Ah ah ahhhh...
You can't go... You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave...
Have that beer soon too Vegas!!!
Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
I really don't like it when people make sense.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I think I need some time in the hyperbaric chamber
Runner
Nev Cottrell (35)
A very valid point
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
It does become mind numbing, but it has also been interesting to see the same issues being discussed in South Africa and NZ with similar observations.
The difference is in this country rugby is a boutique international sport, in a population that is becoming more and more insular. We are demanding to be the best in the world at something, even if it is two sports no-one else plays.... brilliant.
In the other named countries I am not sure that this is the case. There may be economies built around club and professional rugby that may better facilitate this behaviour in those places and they are still wrestling with the problems. In this country the sport does not have that luxury.
The difference is in this country rugby is a boutique international sport, in a population that is becoming more and more insular. We are demanding to be the best in the world at something, even if it is two sports no-one else plays.... brilliant.
In the other named countries I am not sure that this is the case. There may be economies built around club and professional rugby that may better facilitate this behaviour in those places and they are still wrestling with the problems. In this country the sport does not have that luxury.
Is the Scholarship Arms Race just an extension of what is happening in Junior Rugby, where in most districts and zones there is one predatory club that is hell bent on winning premierships that they encourage, entice, and poach players to assemble super teams that win all before them.
Wood Rat
Alfred Walker (16)
There are so many shades of grey in these arguments. Geoffrey Robertson could go to town on these for a month.
Should players stay with a Village club in c or d division and not play as many (any) a division or rep standard players in his age group or a higher age, Will this help their own development
Changing clubs may be more about finding a game at a standard suitable and fair than being poached or otherwise
Should teams persist in playing in poorly graded competitions and get belted year after year. Maybe the Super teams could be graded in an older age groups at village level. Managing the transferable and non-transferable would get interesting but there a a few clubs ....the usual suspects .....that are a bit free and easy with that as well.
If there was a correct answer, there would be no need for this thread.
Naturally skilled rugby players who happen to live in an area where the rest of the kids are "normal". Should they be forced to stay in a C Division team with the rest of their neighbourhood? They will score 200 tries each year but never seriously be challenged. They will be playing with their mates in true and time honoured traditional amateur ethos. They will probably be the glue that keeps that team going, knowing that Oliver will win the team many games that they wouldn't necessarily have a hope of winning otherwise.
If/when Oliver goes to a A division club, and team X remains in C Division starts to lose consistently because Oliver has gone. What happens next, Team X folds because it isn't fun any more. Why should Oliver be forced to remain with Team X just because he happened to live in their catchment as an Under 6 boy?
Is the "crime" Oliver (and his parents) moving to a team that is more challenging and appropriate to his skill level?
It is a fine moral line that the A division club must tread. Do they turn Oliver away when the parents try to register him? Should they approach Oliver's parents and suggest that he may be better off playing in a more competitive team/club such as theirs?
Where is the line crossed?
Free registration for Oliver at Club Y, Petrol money for Oliver's parents to join Club Y?
As Wood Rat suggests there are many shades of grey. One persons view of a team operating as a vicarious predatory superclub is another persons belief that they have just provided a appropriate challenging level of football for talented athletes so they can reach their full potential.
Aggressive poaching should be discouraged particularly when there are "inducements".
Self selection and "natural" concentration of talent on a semi random basis is a normal state of affairs.
Naturally skilled rugby players who happen to live in an area where the rest of the kids are "normal". Should they be forced to stay in a C Division team with the rest of their neighbourhood? They will score 200 tries each year but never seriously be challenged. They will be playing with their mates in true and time honoured traditional amateur ethos. They will probably be the glue that keeps that team going, knowing that Oliver will win the team many games that they wouldn't necessarily have a hope of winning otherwise.
If/when Oliver goes to a A division club, and team X remains in C Division starts to lose consistently because Oliver has gone. What happens next, Team X folds because it isn't fun any more. Why should Oliver be forced to remain with Team X just because he happened to live in their catchment as an Under 6 boy?
Is the "crime" Oliver (and his parents) moving to a team that is more challenging and appropriate to his skill level?
It is a fine moral line that the A division club must tread. Do they turn Oliver away when the parents try to register him? Should they approach Oliver's parents and suggest that he may be better off playing in a more competitive team/club such as theirs?
Where is the line crossed?
Free registration for Oliver at Club Y, Petrol money for Oliver's parents to join Club Y?
As Wood Rat suggests there are many shades of grey. One persons view of a team operating as a vicarious predatory superclub is another persons belief that they have just provided a appropriate challenging level of football for talented athletes so they can reach their full potential.
Aggressive poaching should be discouraged particularly when there are "inducements".
Self selection and "natural" concentration of talent on a semi random basis is a normal state of affairs.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
TSC have one I believe.I think I need some time in the hyperbaric chamber
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Just going to pop back into the hyperbaric chamber for another blast, this is too much for a Sunday night.
lincoln
Bob Loudon (25)
He may be picked up thru the school system - yes even chs. Changing clubs hurts everyone - particularly parents - friends come and go but an enemy is made for life.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Skilled children being forced to play with "normal children in their neighbourhood" i.e. their friends. Is this the point we've reached? Aren't there district rep teams where all the "skilled children" are brought together to play?
It's no good for rugby when particular clubs in an age group trawl all over Sydney to assemble a team of all-stars. This is typically done by egotistical adults rather than the boys. Take the 2 or 3 best players out of any junior club and the team folds and thus 13 or more other boys leave the game.
I need a break from this thread
While Club footy is outside the scope of the title of this thread, there are parallels to the Scholarship Arms race happening in Junior Clubland with super teams being raised at Village club and District Rep level.
As Quick Hands points out above (and many other Gaggerlanders on other threads), this is just as damaging to the growth of Rugby participation numbers and widening the base of the pyramid as what is happening in the Schools System.
I can understand why people want to "take a break from this thread", but the message needs to get out there that it is not just predatory Schools that are sucking the fun out of Age Group rugby.
Maybe there is hope on the horizon in the form of Senator (elect) Dropulich from the Australian Sports Party, who's main platform is apparently "Children's sport".
As Quick Hands points out above (and many other Gaggerlanders on other threads), this is just as damaging to the growth of Rugby participation numbers and widening the base of the pyramid as what is happening in the Schools System.
I can understand why people want to "take a break from this thread", but the message needs to get out there that it is not just predatory Schools that are sucking the fun out of Age Group rugby.
Maybe there is hope on the horizon in the form of Senator (elect) Dropulich from the Australian Sports Party, who's main platform is apparently "Children's sport".
Spieber
Bob Loudon (25)
I think IS has summed it up best - very few children end up professionals. My club (one of the largest in Sydney) has not produced a Super player for 16 years - hundreds of First XV boys, maybe 10-20 SS 1sts players. Kids should be allowed to play with their neighbourhood friends and be part of a tribe that will support them through life
Huge, do some Dads see changing clubs as a way to get their boys into the scholarship game?
^^ probably.
In NSW, the Scholarship "meat market" appears to be the NSW State Champs over the long weekend.
Real "age group" superstars get "noticed" and approached at U11's and U12's for Year 7 entry to <insert school name>.
There doesn't seem to be too much venom spat their way by many of the posters on here because they don't displace a lad who has done 13A's to 16A's when they rock up in Year 11.
Most of the concern is about the late arrivals at <insert school name>. These lads have typically represented Sydney or NSW Country in U15 or U16 level, based on performances at NSW State Champs. The make it to the NSW State champs meat market by being selected for their District (City) or Zone (country).
There are sometimes barriers, real or perceived, at the interface between club and district where a parent or child may decide that the only way they are going to make a District/Zone rep team to get "noticed" is to either move club or district. In the back of their minds may be " I reckon I might get a Scholarship", but for many it is just about winning something, and collecting some rep gear along the way.
IMHO, there is a very small number who are acutely aware that Scouts and player managers for Mungo, Schools and ARU are at State champs and the potential consequences of this.
Some kids change School associations (not clubs) following a decent performance at the NSW Schools U16 tournament.
Bottom line, the U15 and U16 years are rather important. NSW State Champs U14 and U15 are rather important and not many of the supposed subsidised school fees boys did not participate in these. If you are desperate to get fee relief, it would appear that you need to do whatever is necessary to make State Champs in either or both U14 and U15.
Will this change with the advent of the revised Junior Gold Cup? Probably not, it will just give another chance for the jackals to benchmark performances of individuals.
In NSW, the Scholarship "meat market" appears to be the NSW State Champs over the long weekend.
Real "age group" superstars get "noticed" and approached at U11's and U12's for Year 7 entry to <insert school name>.
There doesn't seem to be too much venom spat their way by many of the posters on here because they don't displace a lad who has done 13A's to 16A's when they rock up in Year 11.
Most of the concern is about the late arrivals at <insert school name>. These lads have typically represented Sydney or NSW Country in U15 or U16 level, based on performances at NSW State Champs. The make it to the NSW State champs meat market by being selected for their District (City) or Zone (country).
There are sometimes barriers, real or perceived, at the interface between club and district where a parent or child may decide that the only way they are going to make a District/Zone rep team to get "noticed" is to either move club or district. In the back of their minds may be " I reckon I might get a Scholarship", but for many it is just about winning something, and collecting some rep gear along the way.
IMHO, there is a very small number who are acutely aware that Scouts and player managers for Mungo, Schools and ARU are at State champs and the potential consequences of this.
Some kids change School associations (not clubs) following a decent performance at the NSW Schools U16 tournament.
Bottom line, the U15 and U16 years are rather important. NSW State Champs U14 and U15 are rather important and not many of the supposed subsidised school fees boys did not participate in these. If you are desperate to get fee relief, it would appear that you need to do whatever is necessary to make State Champs in either or both U14 and U15.
Will this change with the advent of the revised Junior Gold Cup? Probably not, it will just give another chance for the jackals to benchmark performances of individuals.
rugbyscribe
Herbert Moran (7)
Any idea who the Kings 1st XV coach and MIC of Rugby were at the time?
Spieber
Bob Loudon (25)
Egerton/Parry IIRC