Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Inside Shoulder]

Changing it from Schoolboys to U18,changes the path to selection.
ATM 2 rounds of AAGPS games,followed by a semi opposed session in GPS3's gets too many a NSW jumper.
Selection in GPS 1's is virtually a guaranteed selection in the NSW side.
One starting player for NSW1's was not selected for further honours last year.
So basically,anyone lucky enough to play Kings in the first two rounds last year was a great chance to be selected for Oz Schools (both 50 point scorelines)
That is not a pathway,it's a birth right.

The short term impact of that would be (a) very few players (b) even fewer who could claim to be the best (right or wrong the GPS has more than its share of the best u18 players)(c) poor u 18 sides, with no GPS, ISA etc etc.
Not all the unfairness goes the same way: some GPS boys miss out because CHS/ISA etc have to have someone selected so as to keep the dream alive.
There's no doubt the system is utterly f@cked but unless the alternative will produce short to medium term results its a baby with the bathwater problem.
All it says to me is that in 18 years of "professional administration" this game is in worse shape than it was in 1995, 1985 and 1975 in this country - and only in this country, as far as I can tell.
Here's an out there suggestion: supply no refs to school comps!

 

[I like to watch]

I disagree.
If all the kids knew that next years rep jumpers were being selected out of this JGS comp,they would all participate.
I am not suggesting GPS kids should not be selected,because they go to a nice School.
I am suggesting that they should trial in a North West team or whatever,not a Schools Association whereby most selections are based upon reputations(given they are selected after only 2 games,whereby some selectors have not sighted selected players in the current season!)

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I am suggesting that they should trial in a North West team or whatever,not a Schools Association whereby most selections are based upon reputations(given they are selected after only 2 games,whereby some selectors have not sighted selected players in the current season!)

They will not be allowed to by the schools.
So you either give the school systems no one to play or you include them and disrupt the pathway.
That's the problem - you have to excommunicate them, suffer the consequences and break the schools' stranglehold.

 

[I like to watch]

Aren't GPS boys involved in these jGS games ATM?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Sydney's newest Junior Rugby Club is a glimmer of hope.

Anyone living out Penrith Way may be interested in this tweet:

https://twitter.com/PenrithRSLJRUC


"Come and Try Rugby at Nepean Rugby Park!

Tuesdays 5.30-6.30 for 4 to 12 year olds"

Spread the word.

Good to see some proactive promotion to try and attract players. Hope they get plenty of recruits.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Aren't GPS boys involved in these jGS games ATM?

Very few.
And a number of schools seem to have said no: there's no one from TSC for instance.
There is a name in the squad list (still) but he has not fronted.

 

[Man on the hill]

Why do you say it is a chance of history?

Could just have easily have been Soccer

 

[Man on the hill]

Very few.
And a number of schools seem to have said no: there's no one from TSC for instance.
There is a name in the squad list (still) but he has not fronted.

Not quite correct (at least in the U15 Sydney South Squad) - a number of TSC boys were selected and were active, but the allure of Glengary was overwhelming. I know that an informal trial was held so that the TSC boys could actually get to play before heading south.

 

[Shane Smeltz]

There is one boy from TSC in another Sydney 15s team but that boy is doing the JGC having been to Glengarry last year.
However that boy I heard has pulled out of his club team for this year, TSC having tied up his time so conveniently that he cannot play club.

Another one bites the dust.

 

[S'UP]

They will not be allowed to by the schools.
So you either give the school systems no one to play or you include them and disrupt the pathway.
That's the problem - you have to excommunicate them, suffer the consequences and break the schools' stranglehold.

And as we all know there is the problem if you excommunicate the schools what do you really have? Not much I guess. Hence the schools will continue to do what they want and everyone else will just fall in line. As I've said before on this or another thread, The ARU needs to take control for things to change. But first the ARU needs to change to take control.

 

[I like to watch]

If it is clear,that all rep jumpers in the future will come out of the JGC process,the kids will vote with their feet.
Regardless of what the Schools tell them.
There is no need for a revolution,just a well articulated statement on the development/rep selection process.

 

[Runner]

And as we all know there is the problem if you excommunicate the schools what do you really have? Not much I guess. Hence the schools will continue to do what they want and everyone else will just fall in line. As I've said before on this or another thread, The ARU needs to take control for things to change. But first the ARU needs to change to take control.

An answer to a previous question by Quick Hands :

The bigger GPS schools (in terms of rugby), Joeys, Kings, Riverview & Shore have about 8-10 open teams each and go down to about Gs or Hs in 15s & 16s and down to Js or Ks in 13s & 14s, so very roughly they'd each run about 48 teams, Scots a few less maybe 33 teams, New a few less again maybe 25 teams, High and Grammar maybe 10-12 teams each. That's about 280 teams just in GPS. CAS a bit smaller might run 240 teams. ISA a bit smaller again in Div 1, but run 3 divisions so another 240 teams there as well.

So we're talking around 760 teams running around every Saturday - even if you only allocate 15 players to each of those teams, it's about 11,400 players plus.

Hard to tell the schools to go away.

 

[Freddo Frog]

There are quite a few boys from TSC 16's playing club.
Some may have decided that with other commitments (not just school rugby, but also music and maybe even some study!) that they can't fit it in. But it's incorrect to say that the school prevents boys from playing club.

 

[Hugie]

I don't think you can nor would want to attack the private schools system. The question is "Is the $500k that the ARU puts into the schools system the best use of limited $ ?" I think not.

My view is that:

1. CHS and CCC should pull out of the schools system as they do not have objectives that are compatible with the private rugby schools objectives.
2. The ARU should swing the $500k over to the CHS and CCC to promote rugby in these school with the objective of feeding into the local junior clubs, through gala days, 7s promotions etc. (and then getting their money back through the levy, with more junior teams).
3. The main pathway then for CHS and CCC will then become the JGCup. From this (U17s program) an U18 Australian team be selected and it becomes the main Australian U18 team playing international games etc. After all this is the norm internationally.
4. The private schools will continue with their system (without the ARU money) as it forms an important part of their marketing, they will simply have to stump up the money (as they should to market their product. Why should club boys pay to market private schools?). The Australian Private School boys team won't be diminished in any way as virtually no CHS boys and no CCC boys make it into this team anyway. And if the private schools want to pay to develop boys contracted to league teams that's their business, but club rugby shouldn't.

The objective for the ARU must be to grow participation at the grass roots level, the current set up is not concerned with this objective, so the resources should be redeployed.

 

[Runner]

I don't think you can nor would want to attack the private schools system. The question is "Is the $500k that the ARU puts into the schools system the best use of limited $ ?" I think not.

My view is that:

1. CHS and CCC should pull out of the schools system as they do not have objectives that are compatible with the private rugby schools objectives.
2. The ARU should swing the $500k over to the CHS and CCC to promote rugby in these school with the objective of feeding into the local junior clubs, through gala days, 7s promotions etc. (and then getting their money back through the levy, with more junior teams).
3. The main pathway then for CHS and CCC will then become the JGCup. From this (U17s program) an U18 Australian team be selected and it becomes the main Australian U18 team playing international games etc. After all this is the norm internationally.
4. The private schools will continue with their system (without the ARU money) as it forms an important part of their marketing, they will simply have to stump up the money (as they should to market their product. Why should club boys pay to market private schools?). The Australian Private School boys team won't be diminished in any way as virtually no CHS boys and no CCC boys make it into this team anyway. And if the private schools want to pay to develop boys contracted to league teams that's their business, but club rugby shouldn't.

The objective for the ARU must be to grow participation at the grass roots level, the current set up is not concerned with this objective, so the resources should be redeployed.

Japanese ploy called the devine wind at work here.

 

[Quick Hands]

No-one is saying excommunicate schools or kill off schools rugby. What people are generally saying is:

Schools are well-resourced, have access to 1st class facilities, good coaches and rugby is the most high profile winter sport in the private school world. That being the case, they are actually quite capable of looking after themselves. In fact, one could say that they have done a lot better job running their competitions than have the NSWRU/ARU.

Meanwhile, the junior club system has been in serious decline for over a decade. It faces serious problems of funding, resources and coaching. How many junior clubs have sports scientists, ice baths, altitude chambers, pools, gyms etc.

Regardless of what happens overseas, the sports development model which works in Australia is club based, not schools based. As long as school rugby is where most of the player development occurs, rugby administrators have no real control over this process. Village club rugby in Sydney has become the poor cousin, depending on school players backing up for a 2nd game to run competitions. The downward spiral will continue as long as this is the case.

In all other sports, schools are the icing on the cake, in rugby school sports are the cake.

Therein lies the problem and as long as almost the entire NSWRU board are GPS old boys, it's unlikely to change.

 

[Dave Beat]

No-one is saying excommunicate schools or kill off schools rugby. What people are generally saying is:

Schools are well-resourced, have access to 1st class facilities, good coaches and rugby is the most high profile winter sport in the private school world. That being the case, they are actually quite capable of looking after themselves. In fact, one could say that they have done a lot better job running their competitions than have the NSWRU/ARU.

Meanwhile, the junior club system has been in serious decline for over a decade. It faces serious problems of funding, resources and coaching. How many junior clubs have sports scientists, ice baths, altitude chambers, pools, gyms etc.

Regardless of what happens overseas, the sports development model which works in Australia is club based, not schools based. As long as school rugby is where most of the player development occurs, rugby administrators have no real control over this process. Village club rugby in Sydney has become the poor cousin, depending on school players backing up for a 2nd game to run competitions. The downward spiral will continue as long as this is the case.

In all other sports, schools are the icing on the cake, in rugby school sports are the cake.

Therein lies the problem and as long as almost the entire NSWRU board are GPS old boys, it's unlikely to change.

hmmmmm.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

In fact, one could say that they have done a lot better job running their competitions than have the NSWRU/ARU.

At what cost to the game as whole though?
I suppose its not a particularly high bar you're measuring them against.

There are quite a few boys from TSC 16's playing club.
Some may have decided that with other commitments (not just school rugby, but also music and maybe even some study!) that they can't fit it in. But it's incorrect to say that the school prevents boys from playing club.

I didn't mean to suggest that TSC had stopped them playing - I can see why that impression was given - i was referring to it because I had irrefutable proof that he is on a JGC team sheet still: it was actually a dig at the JGC for not knowing what is going on.
There is no doubt that some of the GPS schools forbid and some put the weights on kids not to play.
Some TSC 16's who had played in the past are not playing club.
And this from one school's website:

Permission may be granted, up to the Under 14 age group only, for boys wishing to play for local clubs in the State Championships

 

[Quick Hands]

Correct IS, they don't have to beat much.

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There is a fairly frank and fearless debate about the future of Sydney Junior Rugby going on in this thread with over 400 posts, now in its 3rd month.

AFAIK there are no SJRU Committee members actively participating in this exchange of views, nor too many club or district administrators, although I suspect that there are a number of Gaggerlanders who are closely affiliated with said SJRU committee members or Junior Village Club committee members.

I am also not that naive to think that some "in power" do not lurk here from time to time.

Accepting that the main correspondents to this debate may not be currently actively involved in the administration of SJRU at any level, they still contribute to the debate on a frequent basis with most of the contributions being very worthwhile.

One wonders if the "uninvolved" (AKA us) are having such a debate on the interwebs, are those inside the SJRU machinery having as constant, frank and fearless debate on the issues as we are?