Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Quick Hands]

One suspects that at least some of those on these committees are straight from a Yes Minister episode. That is not to say that there aren't hard workers who want the best for the kids there. It's just that they are often obstructed by entrenched cliques/

I'm about to start my 4th run through the juniors (if one counts my playing time in the 70s). Some of the same characters are involved that I dealt with 13 or 14 years ago. I was less than impressed with them then, and as I have become slightly crankier and less tolerant of fools, I suspect I'll be underwhelmed again.

 

[Dave Beat]

There is a fairly frank and fearless debate about the future of Sydney Junior Rugby going on in this thread with over 400 posts, now in its 3rd month.

AFAIK there are no SJRU Committee members actively participating in this exchange of views, nor too many club or district administrators, although I suspect that there are a number of Gaggerlanders who are closely affiliated with said SJRU committee members or Junior Village Club committee members.

I am also not that naive to think that some "in power" do not lurk here from time to time.

Accepting that the main correspondents to this debate may not be currently actively involved in the administration of SJRU at any level, they still contribute to the debate on a frequent basis with most of the contributions being very worthwhile.

One wonders if the "uninvolved" (AKA us) are having such a debate on the interwebs, are those inside the SJRU machinery having as constant, frank and fearless debate on the issues as we are?

One only hope so.

There is a lot of good banter an ideas that pass through these pages.

I use to say there was the
ARU.
and a clear divide between
Australian Rugby.

GAGR may be bridging that divide, with a bit of luck various bodies may change their approach, model, or role the play.

An example of an interesting idea floated about the Eastern States having the one body.

 

[Quick Hands]

HJ and I and others have come to the conclusion some time ago that 15s and 17s in Sydney should be run as part of the colts system. Others have also suggested that the JGC should be run after this, perhaps parallel to the NRC.

This brings us to 10-14s, and I suggest that the current season is a bit of an anachronism. We have a 14 round season, with a district rep season in the middle, so that for about 5-6 weeks boys have an extra game and extra training session per week and all the disruption that goes with that. (3 games a week if they are also playing at school).

I'd suggest that we reduce the village club season to 10 weeks and that after that we have a 4 week district rep season. Play it properly and resource it better.

Playing district reps over the June long weekend no longer makes sense to me.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I don't think you can nor would want to attack the private schools system. The question is "Is the $500k that the ARU puts into the schools system the best use of limited $ ?".

By all means have the debate about the $500K, however the money is spent on the NSW and Australian Schools Rugby Union is for representative programs, tournaments, tours etc. The money is not distributed to individual schools and the players within a school receive no benefit from the $500k unless they progress down the rep path.

 

[S'UP]

HJ and I and others have come to the conclusion some time ago that 15s and 17s in Sydney should be run as part of the colts system. Others have also suggested that the JGC should be run after this, perhaps parallel to the NRC.

This brings us to 10-14s, and I suggest that the current season is a bit of an anachronism. We have a 14 round season, with a district rep season in the middle, so that for about 5-6 weeks boys have an extra game and extra training session per week and all the disruption that goes with that. (3 games a week if they are also playing at school).

I'd suggest that we reduce the village club season to 10 weeks and that after that we have a 4 week district rep season. Play it properly and resource it better.

Playing district reps over the June long weekend no longer makes sense to me.

Or you could do as most other sports do and play during the school holidays, that would allow for a full club season and then the rep season straight after, the JGC teams could be pick at the same time as the rep teams (all boys get seen at trials), the rep boys go off and play reps, the remainder of the JGC teams go and train (boys in the JGC teams training are backup for injured rep players), once the rep season is over the rep boys come back to JGC training and then in Feb the JGC games begin and in April we are back to club / school football. The school season whould have to run on the same timetable.

 

[Fat Cat]

Dear MNZ Presidents,

FYI. SJRU have made the coaching appointments for MNZ teams for 2014. (Refer bottom of email) I have some concern re no selectors being identified in the

U16s. Paul I would like for you and I to think about this and identify some selectors. Nominations from Warringah and Manly would also be welcome. In the selection of both teams we should

indicate to coaches and selectors the need to consult district coaches during the selection process.



As previously raised with you, last year there was a number of issues that came out of the zone carnival and feel it is our responsibility to address this and pass on our expectations to coaches,

selectors and team managers in regards. The issues that arose were related to team selections and complaints from parents related to game time given to players.



MNZ Team Selection



Last year the Sydney selectors advised MNZ selectors at the State Carnival weekend, that they would be required to select the U15 MNZ team on the Sunday night prior to Monday semi-finals.

The MNZ team should not have been finalised until after the Gordon v Norths semi-final. (Clearly identified as the two top teams in the competition) This resulted in significant fall-out after the

zone carnival that the previous Gordon president and I had to deal with.



Recommendation – MNZ selectors advised to finalise selections only after all games involving district teams are concluded at the state carnival.



Purpose of the zone carnival



How should MNZ districts view the Zone Carnival ? Is it a selection trial to provide players further opportunity to enhance the chances of further rep honours or is it a competition where coaches

should be encourage to select teams to achieve best possible results in the belief that winning teams will achieve better outcomes ? Last year some players received less than 20 minutes game

time over the weekend, while others, many of whom were already identified for Sydney selection, were rarely substituted if at all.



Recommendation – MNZ should treat the zone carnival as a selection trial. Direct coaches and managers to ensure all players are afforded a minimum amount of game time over the weekend

to push their claims. With 150 minutes of playing time over the 3 games played on the weekend, all players selected should be entitled minimum amount of game time of 40 minutes, participate

in at least two games and take the field in a starting side at least once.



Note – MWZ policy is that coaches select teams to achieve best possible results in the belief that they will benefit in the selection of Sydney teams. Last year in both the U15s and U16s, MWZ finished on top in both

age groups when for and against taken into account. MNZ achieved the lowest number of Sydney selections of all zones including players selected from barbarian teams.



I ask you to consider and seek your feedback with a view to formalising some policy on these matters that will need to be communicated to coaches, selectors and managers prior to the State

Championships.



Regards,








Andrew Skelly | President - Northern Suburbs Junior Rugby Union
Email : askelly@nafda.com.au | m: 0413 517 057
I would have thought the purpose of the carnival was to was to provide a pathway through to greater honours via the SJRU competition structure. This age group is the critical one in which teams start to fold after the state championships. The system is even more beneficial to private school players with the removal of the grandfather clause in this age group due to the rugby league kids not being available to play on a Sunday and therefore not in the state champo's. If you want greater numbers of boys staying in rugby you need to work around the league competitions not schools. Lets wait and see how many of these private school boys play village club rugby next year. If these schools boys have already been picked up in the ARU / schools program they will be gone already. Welcome to the black hole where we lose boys to rugby forever.

 

[Gary Owen III]

I would have thought the purpose of the carnival was to was to provide a pathway through to greater honours via the SJRU competition structure. This age group is the critical one in which teams start to fold after the state championships. The system is even more beneficial to private school players with the removal of the grandfather clause in this age group due to the rugby league kids not being available to play on a Sunday and therefore not in the state champo's. If you want greater numbers of boys staying in rugby you need to work around the league competitions not schools. Lets wait and see how many of these private school boys play village club rugby next year. If these schools boys have already been picked up in the ARU / schools program they will be gone already. Welcome to the black hole where we lose boys to rugby forever.

FC - I would have thought that the private school players are the major group affected by the removal of the grandfather clause. They can no longer just play Reps alone and my guess is we will see a heap less teams in this age group across the North Shore especially.

But I am interested in your comments re League players and the Rep pathway. Why should the Rep pathway for Rugby be worked around League? surely the Rugby Rep pathway is there primarily for the kids that choose Rugby as their main sport?

 

[Fat Cat]

Gazza I think you may be on the wrong thread this one is about attracting more people into the sport so as to stop the continued decline of SJRU

 

[Quick Hands]

Or you could do as most other sports do and play during the school holidays, that would allow for a full club season and then the rep season straight after, the JGC teams could be pick at the same time as the rep teams (all boys get seen at trials), the rep boys go off and play reps, the remainder of the JGC teams go and train (boys in the JGC teams training are backup for injured rep players), once the rep season is over the rep boys come back to JGC training and then in Feb the JGC games begin and in April we are back to club / school football. The school season whould have to run on the same timetable.

Why do you want to play rugby in February? It's the hottest month in the hottest continent?

 

[Fat Cat]

Can someone do a forensic examination of the SJRU committee and appointed rep coaches for zone and Sydney and what schools they go to (or their kids)

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm reading between the lines of the message you copied in post FC. The gentleman who signed it is the President of Norths and there was talk of a Gordon v Norths match being the top 2 teams in the competition and there was a sentence about hoping someone from Manly or Warringah nominated.

My guess would be Norths and Gordon for that age group would be private school dominated. Of course I could be wrong

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I'm reading between the lines of the message you copied in post FC. The gentleman who signed it is the President of Norths and there was talk of a Gordon v Norths match being the top 2 teams in the competition and there was a sentence about hoping someone from Manly or Warringah nominated.

My guess would be Norths and Gordon for that age group would be private school dominated. Of course I could be wrong

They are or more accurately were.
The Norths team had only 2 feeders village clubs: Mosman and Hunters Hill. The drop off in numbers at both means they will have to merge to play in the Sunday comp.
I would be surprised if Gordon were any better off - a lot of private school boys in that team for many years.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Can someone do a forensic examination of the SJRU committee and appointed rep coaches for zone and Sydney and what schools they go to (or their kids)

To what end?
The author is a private school father but he has given a huge amount to village rugby over many years.
The grandfather clause was pulled: pulling it was contrary to the interests of the private school kids so you can hardly accuse him/them of bias.
In my view the problems being discussed are a reflection of the complete absence of leadership from the ARU over nearly 20 years.
In, say, 1995 the schools had nowhere near the investment in rugby they now have. No one knew whether anyone could make a living out of it. Arms races between the schools were few and far between.
Then was the time to bolster the juniors and marginalise the schools.

 

[Quick Hands]

The e-mail was almost a cry for help. Someone trying to make sense of a dysfunction system.

Village clubs are about to start trialling and their competition starts late March/early April. There's a 2 week break for Easter holidays and less than a third of the way into the club season, we're selecting district rep teams to play at the beginning of June and from that weekend a Zone team is selected to play in July.

All the while the village club season continues, so that village games and training are taking place at the same time as district reps, same with the zone competition and then the village competitions keep going and finishes in August. It's all over the place like a dog's breakfast. And this is before we even get to JGC.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to have a 10 week village season, with 2 weeks of finals, followed by a 4 week district rep season? (for 10s -14s)

Are the zone games really necessary? We don't even have zones anymore do we?

How many representative levels do we need for a dwindling number of players?

Shouldn't 15s and 17s be part of the district colts set up, play a one round competition and then be selected for a JGC to be played in Aug/Sept instead of Feb/Mar?

We seem to be adding more and more layers of representation and complexity on top of each other, instead of in a bottom up, logical sequence.

 

[Druid]

I agree the whole rep system and district set-up needs to be looked at, however I do not see how reducing the amount of games from 14 to 10 (with 4 of these rounds being used for grading) for 90% of the players that do not participate in reps (particularly in the younger age groups). A non Private school Rugby player would therefore only potentially play 6 competition games in a season? I do not see how this encourages an increase of non private school kids into Rugby.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think you've misunderstood. Everyone plays 10 weeks, semi-finalists play 11 or 12, at the conclusion of that some play district reps for 4 weeks and at the conclusion of that some play JGC for whatever number of weeks that takes.

Where do you get 6 weeks from?

I also question that 90% of players don't play reps. Maybe in 10s, but once you get to 15, I'd reckon 90 % would be playing reps - there ain't that many left by that time,

There's only 52 weeks in the year and not all of them are suitable for rugby - the more and more levels of representation that there are means something has to give.

If there was demand you could run a 4 week 7s comp for the non rep players while the district rep season was on in order to achieve the magic 14 weeks.

I'd have thought that it's common sense to run village, then district reps and then JGC with each acting as a selection for the next.

 

[Druid]

It is possible I have misunderstood. Currently in the 2014 season there is 14 scheduled weeks of Rugby + semi's etc. Four of those weeks are used for grading purposes whereby at the end of the first 4 weeks, most of the competitions get reset to zero and start again leaving 10 weeks of "Competition" games. Hence all players get 14 games with 10 of them being in a real "competition".

Under your proposal all kids would only play 10 games, of which presumably 4 weeks would still be used for grading, whereby at the end competitions get reset to zero and the kids would play 6 round of "competition" Rugby. Hence in a relatively standard 10 team competition you would only get to play half of the teams in the "real competition".

In 2013 U14s there were 893 registered players in SJRU with 9 districts playing rep Rugby only 207 of these play reps (9*23).

In 2013 for U15s there were 746 players (with Under 5s going down to "C" grade) again with only 207 of these players playing reps. This certainly means more players are not playing rep than are. Now granted some of these registration may well be phantom registrations but that is another story.

As I said I agree the reps and districts absolutely should be reviewed, however I am objecting to reducing the amount of games the majority of kids play to ensure the minority get more games.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What is the rationale for reps below the age of, say, 14?
Do we really want to tell 13s and under that they're elite or better? More importantly do we want to tell those who aren't selected that they're not as good? Doesn't this just serve to disillusion kids who, in many cases, are yet to reach their rugby potential?
Do 22 1/2 minute games over 3 days in pools determined by how you went last year really unearth the next group of Wallabies?
Do the resultant "super teams" help the code?
Are the State Champs just like the NFL combines for some of the private schools and the NRL?

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm not sure what age district reps should come in. I'm struggling to accept that reps are needed for 10 and 11 year olds. There was a move a few years back to delete the 10s, but all they've done is put it on another time.

Certainly 10s and 11s, and possibly 12s don't need district rep teams. They should be spending maximum time learning skills and enjoying the game rather than being involved in a selection process. As I see it the current June long weekend rep season is a major disruption and distraction to the village competition. Druid is correct that the majority of the boys don't play reps - I was only questioning his 90% figure. Play it at the end of the season when village rugby is finished.

It's also interesting that there is something magic about a 14 week season. Schools are often held up as being the best rugby, but they don't play a 14 week season - they play 10 and until last year they played 7 weeks.

As I suggested above, we could run a 7s tournament over 4 weeks parallel to an end of season district rep season for the boys who don't play reps. These boys might actually enjoy it and the dads would be happy that they got their 14 weeks of rugby.

I'd also question the notion that the first 4 weeks of the 14 week season aren't real games and that there are only 10 real games. There aren't sheep stations riding on these fixtures and the boys are still playing rugby.

It's also interesting to note that GPS only run 1sts, 2nds & 3rds as competitions. Everyone else just turns up every week and has fun playing rugby without trophies and premierships riding on it. It doesn't seem to have had a negative effect there.

 

[Man on the hill]

Discussion about the length of the season are almost as futile and nonsensical as “telling” GPS & CAS what they must and must not be doing. Grounds are only available for a finite period before they revert to summer sport.



Then, the charter of SJRU will be something along the lines of player development (participant numbers & their skill) AND player opportunity to participate. By not overlapping the various activities, you do penalise the participant (as opposed to performance) based kids – you just made their season shorter and less important – and then you wonder why kids drop out!



It’s the kids ranked 16 – 100, that give any significance to being in the 1st XV – without them, you just become 15 players – and soon even that would disappear.



This perpetual focus on “reps” is unhealthy and was no doubt the driving force behind MNZ’s original shift to Sunday rugby – world domination! I don’t think MNZ foresaw the long term consequences when they moved to Sunday rugby in the hope of attracting more quality participants from the private schools for their rep teams – a bit like cane toads really!