Reds 2015

[Gnostic]

Gnostic,

Yes Owen was a loss but let's not get too carried away with his potential. He had been with at least two Super Rugby teams prior and let go before coming to the Reds. He had failed to cement a consistent bench spot until he arrived at the Reds.

He is also now 28. It's about that time when a player can't really be recruited on potential any more.

When do props really start to develop in general?

Holmes has certainly got better and more consistent as he aged. Longbottom the same. I would even say the regular Wallaby THs (SK and BA) are far better now than when they started. My point is The Reds and Red fans have no batted an eyelid at the loss of the only specialist THP backup you had with any experience.

Also Owens was "lent" to the Rebels when they had serious injury problems and the Tahs had three THs on the books. I find it bewildering that you talk of potential in Owens but make no comment on the retention of Daley, who has unfortunately shown no development as a prop at all in more years as a regular 23 player.

Owen is only one part, with Anae also going (I'd forgotten that). Reds are shrinking in terms of quality instead of expanding.

 

[gel]

Hasn't Hunt been injured most of this year with knees and hamstrings or something (I don;t follow AFL, so am only going by whispers around our office)?

Is it likely he will even play much next year given those injuries?

 

[I like to watch]

Hunt was never above 95kg playing NRL and now is in the 80s. If he was exceptional quick I could see him excelling, but he really isn't

It doesn't matter what he weighs now,it's about what he will weigh at the start of next season.
I'm not sure what he weighed when he played Mungo,but he was heavy in contact.
I reckon he will be a good signing,as much for his professional approach to training,than his playing potential.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Gnostic, Owen was lent by the Brumbies. Who are their reserve tightheads? Or more importantly would have been in 2012 and 2013 when he was not renewed? One of the Smith brothers?

Actually just looking Palmer was starting TH, and Alexander was starting LH, giving them another option in back up.

I could not agree more with props improving with age. I think Owen was really around the peak age where we have seen a lot of props reach their best and be able to combine their scrummaging ability with rugby ability in general and athletic performance.

But at 28, Owen had only just cemented himself as a reserve at a team that had never really had a lot of quality front row depth. He may still improve but since 3 Super Rugby seasons prior, and the years of club rugby before that, had never really shown enough promise to be considered anything more than a potential bench option.

Owen made his ITM Cup Debut and Super Rugby Rugby debut in 2011 at the age of 25

Looking at props that have consistently performed well:

1. Ben Alexander - Born 1984 - ARC debut in 2007 (23) - Super Rugby Debut in 2008 (24) - Test debut in 2008 (24).

2. Sekope Kepu - Born 1986 - ITM Cup Debut 2005 (19) - Super Rugby Debut 2008 (22) - Test Debut 2008 (22).

3. Benn Robinson - Born 1984 - Super Rugby Debut 2006 (22) - Test Debut 2006 (22).

4. Laurie Weeks - Born 1986 - ARC debut 2007 (21) - Super Rugby Debut 2009 (23) - Test Debut 2014 (28).

5. Greg Holmes - Born 1983 - Super Rugby Debut 2005 (22) - Test Debut 2005 (22).

6. James Slipper - Born 1989 - Super Rugby Debut 2010 (21) - Test Debut 2010 (21).

7. Scott Sio - Born 1991 - Super Rugby Debut 2012 (21) - Test Debut 2013 (22).

8. Kieran Longbottom - Born 1985 - Super Rugby Debut 2008 (23).

9. Dan Palmer - Born 1988 - Super Rugby Debut 2008 (20) - Test Debut 2012 (24).

Now all these players would be considered quality props. Where they made their ARC/NRC/CC debut before Super Rugby the average age was 21. There average age for their Super Rugby debut was 22 and the average age of test debut for the 8 Wallabies was 23.

In addition, Ben Daley was our starting loosehead when we won the championship in 2011. He was also the starting loosehead for our demolition of the Irish scrum in 2010 at Suncorp Stadium. I agree he is a weak scrummaging prop though. But the point is that it hasn't hindered teams in Super Rugby. The Waratahs this year again is an example of that. More importantly the Reds strongest season of their scrummaging has been their worst since 2009.

I completely agree with your views on props, but do not think Jono Owen was the best example of this. He took a long time to even be looked at, and then took just as long to manage to maintain a bench position.

All of our recent quality props have shown promise early, and have taken time to really develop some quality consistency. I'd be happy to be proven wrong with a few examples of Super Rugby props that took a long time to come on to the scene. Longbottom is the same age and has been playing Super Rugby for 7 seasons before he has had a very good season. Can the Reds wait another 3 years for Owen to potentially fulfil this promise at 31?

 

[USARugger]

Hasn't Hunt been injured most of this year with knees and hamstrings or something (I don;t follow AFL, so am only going by whispers around our office)?

Is it likely he will even play much next year given those injuries?

He hurt his knee in rd. 13 but I don't think it was particularly serious as their coach was expecting him back in time for finals.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Hunt's biggest issue has been getting back in the team after injury due to the form of younger players.

 

[gel]

He hurt his knee in rd. 13 but I don't think it was particularly serious as their coach was expecting him back in time for finals.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...y|3|link|homepage|homepage&itmt=1406253174801

Not according to that article - it really does read like he has had some injury issues.:

Hunt has kept a low media profile this year, has managed just one game and will miss another two weeks with a knee injury.

He has played seven games in the reserves this year around hamstring and knee injuries and a concussion which led to a staph infection.

I have no idea what to believe.

 

[Tiger]

Hearing the Reds have locked in an international backrower for 2015.

Really? Any indications as to who it is? By "international" do you mean international in the sense that:

(a) he's not from around here; or
(b) he plays (or played) international (i.e. Test) rugby?

 

[Scoey]

I have no idea what to believe.

Look @Gel, you don't know what it's like. Karmichael's the one out there every day putting his ass on the line. And I'm not out of order! You're out of order. The whole freaking system is out of order. You want the truth? You want the truth?! You can't handle the truth! 'Cause when you reach over and put your hand into a pile of goo that was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do! Forget it, Gel, it's Chinatown.

NB: I apologise in advance if you're not a Simpsons fan and missed the reference.

 

[Gnostic]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/gold-coast-suns-to-pay-outgoing-convert-karmichael-hunt-1-million-for-one-game-in-2014/story-e6frf3e3-1227000662752#itm=newscomau|home|nca-homepage-Sport-vertical-panel-story|3|link|homepage|homepage&itmt=1406253150353#itm=newscomau|home|nca-homepage-Sport-vertical-panel-story|3|link|homepage|homepage&itmt=1406253163170#itm=newscomau|home|nca-homepage-Sport-vertical-panel-story|3|link|homepage|homepage&itmt=1406253174801

Not according to that article - it really does read like he has had some injury issues.:





I have no idea what to believe.

How do you get a staph infection from a concussion?

 

[Sully]

Really? Any indications as to who it is? By "international" do you mean international in the sense that:

(a) he's not from around here; or
(b) he plays (or played) international (i.e. Test) rugby?

Purely from rumours I've read on these forums. The Caveman or Brad Thorn. Although Thorn isn't a backrower. And they're both f'ing old.

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[Gnostic]

Purely from rumours I've read on these forums. The Caveman or Brad Thorn. Although Thorn isn't a backrower. And they're both f'ing old.

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Look who's talking.

 

[Braveheart81]

When do props really start to develop in general?

Holmes has certainly got better and more consistent as he aged. Longbottom the same. I would even say the regular Wallaby THs (SK and BA) are far better now than when they started. My point is The Reds and Red fans have no batted an eyelid at the loss of the only specialist THP backup you had with any experience.

Also Owens was "lent" to the Rebels when they had serious injury problems and the Tahs had three THs on the books. I find it bewildering that you talk of potential in Owens but make no comment on the retention of Daley, who has unfortunately shown no development as a prop at all in more years as a regular 23 player.

Owen is only one part, with Anae also going (I'd forgotten that). Reds are shrinking in terms of quality instead of expanding.

It all depends what you're paying them. If Ben Daley and Jono Owen were both offered similar amounts which would likely be fairly low value contracts and Daley accepted and Owen declined it doesn't make it bewildering to retain Daley.

If Owen has decided that he can't stay in Australia earning 100k a year but he can get 200k a year playing in Europe then that doesn't mean the Reds should compete with that. Paying too much for a player who isn't in your starting team and is reaching a fairly mature age means you're missing out on another opportunity or opportunities around younger players.

 

[Sully]

Look who's talking.

I'm in my f'ing prime.

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[Floggn']

Purely from rumours I've read on these forums. The Caveman or Brad Thorn. Although Thorn isn't a backrower. And they're both f'ing old.

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I heard a couple of weeks ago they were talking to a big kiwi blind side/No. 8 that has a few caps to his name and doesn't think he will make the AB's WC squad.

 

[Braveheart81]

Just looking through the list of who that could possibly be.

Surely Victor Vito is too close to selection to consider leaving NZ for Australia which wouldn't mean a huge deal more money.

Jarrad Hoeata would have been a pretty good buy but he is heading to Cardiff.

Any past All Blacks already playing in France or Japan would be getting paid more as it is.

 

[Redsfan]

I wonder if it could mean Luatua...

 

[p.Tah]

I'm in my f'ing prime.

Which prime number?

37, 41, 43, 47...

 

[Train Without a Station]

I wonder if it could mean Luatua.

Surely too young to consider leaving right now

 

[something]

just back to the greene, mcintyre thing. i reckon greene has a higher ceiling and suits the reds style more. Having a proper 90%+ kicker who can also kick immensely well in general play seems to be something the reds would be lacking next year.

Either way neither of them will probably get a spot next season