New Zealand v Australia - Auckland - 23 August 2014

[Bullrush]

@Pfitzy - I'm not looking to start an argument and I appreciate your point about making assumptions based on my own experiences from NZ so I'll just make a couple of points and move on:

Palu - just go back the last 4 or 5 years and have a look at how you guys have rated him against SA & NZ. He isn't consistently the player you need or want him to be. And not when it matters.

Pocock - it's not about the rules of the game. He just a hard, strong player who can make grown men look like boys. I don't think you get that so much with Hooper. To be fair, Hooper brings his own set of headaches for oppositions as seen by his try on Sat but as a fan, those headaches aren't as hard to handle as those Pocock presents.

Putting the shoulder in. In the last few years you've had the Reds and the Waratahs win the Super Rugby title. These guys know how to tackle. Super Rugby is obviously a big step down from Tests but it doesn't change how you tackle. The cross-field kicks, shooting out of the line etc are more back-line defensive problems. My post was more about forwards, in tight, doing the hard yards taking the hit-ups, dropping runners and driving them back. That's about mongrel and attitude and desire. I saw one big tackle from the Wallabies - I think it was from To'omua - but the forwards just didn't seem to relish the rough stuff. They did it at times but I don't know that they love it. Maybe a silly observation and it's totally unfounded cos I don't know any of them but yeah - it's just my observation. You really miss Moore and Pocock at the moment but I can't think of anyone else in the Wallaby frame who is in the same mould.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The referee let anything go. In addition South Africa lost their breakdown dominant 7 in the first 20 minutes. You cannot count on these factors occuring.

Pocock has since struggled to have the same impact on games. Solely due to officiating, not any lacking on his part. The point is those, this is how games are officiated, giving further leniency to the team with the ball at the breakdown. Due to this the effectiveness of a breakdown orientated player is not going to be as strong.

 

[A mutterer]

Have we got replacements?
I don't buy Skelton as an 80 minute player and the humanitarian aid being offered by bullrush is pretty right - I don't think the AB's are too much in awe of him.
Although it scares me to think that Cowan could get 79 minutes - is robinson the answer, and if not who is?
Higginbotham's work rate is not sufficiently in yer face to give us parity let alone ascendancy in the early encounters.
Palu is back (down) to how I remembered him after an exceptional s 15 season.
So where are the options?

horwill is pushing for inclusion. while robbo is still on the outer he is definitely ahead of cowan. on the macs maybe? higginbotham was ok off the pine, a quiet word (read the riot act) in his ear should get more out of him. skelton is nowhere near an 80, unless he comes on at the back end of the match, but he was just one of many poor performers on the weekend.

 

[Viking]

I have always thought of Pocock as being one of the most effective players on the team. However whether or not Pocock is effective these days is simply too hard to tell given his time out of the game.

I think we can all agree Hooper has done well his last 2 games. a year ago I was not a Hooper fan but he has proved me wrong and is only going to continue to improve.

My concerns are still with rest of the forwards (bar- Slipper)
.

 

[Bullrush]

The referee let anything go. In addition South Africa lost their breakdown dominant 7 in the first 20 minutes. You cannot count on these factors occuring.

Pocock has since struggled to have the same impact on games. Solely due to officiating, not any lacking on his part. The point is those, this is how games are officiated, giving further leniency to the team with the ball at the breakdown. Due to this the effectiveness of a breakdown orientated player is not going to be as strong.

The problem for Pocock is obviously the length of time he's had out. Not only in terms of just straight up game time but he's had less chance to adapt to new rules and still be effective eg. McCaw.

If he physically comes back as good as he was in 2011, I think he can make the necessary changes. But it's all just speculation right now

Even as an AB fan, I miss Pocock.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Fuck. Wasn't Pocock that bloke who was fantastic 2/3 years ago. Now we have Hooper - not too shabby a player, I reckon.

My ONY criticism of Hooper was an immature decision of his a couple of weeks ago not to take the kicks (fuck fuck fuck - we would be one all now !!!!) and maybe not being a steading influence last Saturaday night. It is very very hard to be critical of the bloke's effort and playing ability as a player. Maybe he will become a great captain, one day.

Certainly think the discussion of comparing Hooper and Pocock is amusing at this time. Let the bloke come back, play well enough to be considered for the wallabies and the discussion will be off the planet

 

[Viking]

My ONY criticism of Hooper was an immature decision of his a couple of weeks ago not to take the kicks (fuck fuck fuck - we would be one all now !!!!) and maybe not being a steading influence last Saturaday night. It is very very hard to be critical of the bloke's effort and playing ability as a player. Maybe he will become a great captain, one day.
t

As a Captain he needs some experience but as a player he hasn't put a foot wrong.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Fuck. Wasn't Pocock that bloke who was fantastic 2/3 years ago. Now we have Hooper - not too shabby a player, I reckon.

My ONY criticism of Hooper was an immature decision of his a couple of weeks ago not to take the kicks (fuck fuck fuck - we would be one all now !!!!) and maybe not being a steading influence last Saturaday night. It is very very hard to be critical of the bloke's effort and playing ability as a player. Maybe he will become a great captain, one day.

Certainly think the discussion of comparing Hooper and Pocock is amusing at this time. Let the bloke come back, play well enough to be considered for the wallabies and the discussion will be off the planet

No we would not be one all. If Kurtley kicked it we would. Be considering Kurtley missed the similar kick we got 2 minutes later, that we would not have gotten as we took the earlier kick, we cannot guarantee that.

 

[Pfitzy]

Putting the shoulder in. In the last few years you've had the Reds and the Waratahs win the Super Rugby title. These guys know how to tackle.

Yep, agree totally. But a lot of the Reds forwards didn't warrant selection this year. And of the Tahs forwards:

1 Robinson - not selected
2 TPN - injured
3 Kepu - there, but monstered
4 JacPot - not available
5 Douglas - not available
6 Dennis - injured
7 Hooper - there and effective
8 Palu - there and not able to impose himself

 

[Train Without a Station]

The problem for Pocock is obviously the length of time he's had out. Not only in terms of just straight up game time but he's had less chance to adapt to new rules and still be effective eg. McCaw.

If he physically comes back as good as he was in 2011, I think he can make the necessary changes. But it's all just speculation right now

Even as an AB fan, I miss Pocock.

It's not adapting to the new rules. There is no adapting to it. Referees favor attacking teams more than defending teams now. It's just something that limits the effectiveness he can have as a pilfering player.

Richie hasn't adapted to the changes. He's just been able to be effective in other areas as he always has been, to make up for the fact that he will likely only get a single pilfer.

 

[wamberal]

Just as a matter of idle curiosity, do the Wobbs actually have a defensive coach, because it certainly does not look like it to me.

 

[Braveheart81]

Just as a matter of idle curiosity, do the Wobbs actually have a defensive coach, because it certainly does not look like it to me.

Nick Scrivener.

 

[KOB1987]

I think one thing with locks is that often they are momentum players..i.e. they play well when the team is playing well, and this is a lot to do with their responsibilities around the park..

so to that end you could argue a case for the locks that were on the field on Saturday as the whole side was going backwards, but more particularly the locks in the non-performing super XV sides, so Horwill/Simmons/Jones/Neville appeared inferior to and/or not as in form as those of the best performing sides, so Douglas/Skelton/Carter..

there is a similar dynamic for the 6 & 8 but backrowers are more individual players so can they look good when the team looks bad and vice versa..

 

[tragic]

Isn't it funny how when it's the kiwis, 15 on 14 men with a scrum in the 22 is a certain try.

But when it's us in the same position (i.e. bled 1) we just can't convert the situation to a try.

EDIT: It legitimately shits me to tears the way I so often sit here, watching a footy match involving two non kiwi sides, and tell myself "if that was the kiwis, they would've scored a try".

To be fair the key difference is who is in the bin.
Lose a 4/5 and your scrum is screwed. Lose a back rower (or a front rower who can be swapped for a flanker) and you might get away with it.

 

[cyclopath]

To'omua has been disappointing. But a disappointing To'omua is still dominating contact, making tackles and probing the line with his runs, getting on the outside shoulder.

His kicking errors whilst unacceptable can be understandable. When we are under so much pressure, he is under pressure to take the risk and chew off as many meters as possible.

But kicking aside, if every player plays like To'omua, we generally match the opposition.

Is the difference between this and crabbing the person who is doing it?

 

[Scrubber2050]

Funny thing about Rugby - it is no different to any other high level sport.

Confidence is paramount.

 

[Braveheart81]

Is the difference between this and crabbing the person who is doing it?

It seems so.

The more popular players seem to be able to be completely mediocre and it's ignored because people like them.

Even To'omua's missed touchfinder has been excused by several on the basis of us chasing the game so he was looking for extra metres.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Is the difference between this and crabbing the person who is doing it?

No need for sarcastic comments. If he ran straight at the player that would be stupid and he'd be rightly derided for running at the man, not trying to beat him like people said about McCabe.

There's a difference between always moving laterally first, and looking to get past the man by being direct and then veering your run off the shoulder.

The criticisms of Beale are that he moves sideways, then passes, allowing the defender to drift off him.

 

[Train Without a Station]

But yes. One player is more popular. Probably because they show the attributes expected of a test footballer.

 

[Braveheart81]

No need for sarcastic comments. If he ran straight at the player that would be stupid and he'd be rightly derided for running at the man, not trying to beat him like people said about McCabe.

There's a difference between always moving laterally first, and looking to get past the man by being direct and then veering your run off the shoulder.

The criticisms of Beale are that he moves sideways, then passes, allowing the defender to drift off him.

To'omua has been doing much the same all test season. Just no one seems to notice as much as when Beale does it.