ARU take over the Western Force.

[mst]

The Force (even with Pocock, Sharpe and Gits) never got above 7th position. Amongst other reasons, the main one was that they can't get top talent over there - too far from the centre of rugby in Australia. Talk to anyone involved and they'll tell you that's THE massive problem.

Clearly, making money isn't the strong suit for of ANY Super rugby teams in Australia. So if it's about player dev, the argument is foregone: NSW creates about 50% of the semi/pro level players in Australia and yet there is only one Super team there. The Force could only survive with the the players who came from NSW/QLD.

Those making points about having two AFL teams in Syd or Bris and it not working totally miss the point - would the AFL, NRL or any other sport ever have had just ONE team in their home market (Melb for AFL) but instead dotted basket cases around Australia first?

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING?

We may have fucked ups few years back with this decision, but that's no reason to perpetuate it now

I find it interesting that you use references like "home market" which is more of a historical reference if I am correct in the assumption of it being NSW. What metric is the qualifier for the term?

Also you make a comparison to the AFL "home market" of Melbourne where they, over time, have exported clubs to other markets (Bris & Syd) to ensure the existence of teams, and re-badged and moved other within the "home markets" to stop having the basket cases in one basket. They have clearly demonstrated that thinking along traditional lines is flawed and will not sustain the game or clubs. Even the A League had to distance itself from its history to free itself.

The real question that needs to be answered is what to do now. Off the top of my head with little though IMHO round up some clubs in Western Sydney, mash them in to a mini union to work cooperatively with some ARU development funding, and give them a fairly talented NEW NRC club that they can brand, develop and try and entrench in the Western Sydney market, If it establishes a sufficient footprint in 3 years you can revisit the Force issues or establish another Super Rugby team.

 

[Quick Hands]

From what I can see, the only thing worse than keeping the Force going is letting it fold. The ARU have to find a way to make it work (ditto for the Rebels).

And by "making it work", I don't necessarily mean winning the competition or making a huge profit - long term they should be goals. They need to get a decent coach who can attract some good players and win matches and they need to prioritise junior and grass roots development with an eye to the long term. That's the way to eventually win competitions and turn a profit.

 

[Train Without a Station]

On that mst, let's look at how codes develop their competition when they aren't constrained by 100 year old competitions.

The have been 2 newly established competitions in Australia in the last few years.

The A-League and the BBL.

The A-League started with 7 clubs in different cities around Australia (and one in NZ).

They have since added and lost a few different teams. Most importantly to my point, after their success they have then added a new team to Sydney and Melbourne.

The BBL started, has plonked a team in every state's Captial city and then a 2nd on the 2 biggest cities.

Each seems to have started based around covering the country, then adding to big markets.

Gagger's comments about Sydney being a home market is the type of thinking that ensures one thing - the spread of the code remains exactly how it is.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Comparing to the NRL and AFL is an exercise in futility. Very different organisations with different ideology, access to sponsorship, and player development channels.

The AFL's expansion teams were set up by the VFL as a means of raising revenue streams to support struggling clubs (Fitzroy, North Melbourne, Footscray). Thus why Quintex originally owned the Brisbane Bears. Adelaide and Perth were into existing football strongholds, with those four clubs being run by either the WAFC or SANFL. The Swannies were a transferred club (South Melbourne) that had about six supporters (until 2005, when suddenly all the old Bloods supporters emerged from the woodwork). Now the Gold Coast and GWS are interesting propositions. Set up by a huge AFL warchest, with the idea being to ramp up their broadcast deal, as well as invade a city full of southern migrants (Goldy), and try and make headway into NRL and soccer heartland (Westy). Both are still in make-or-break territory, as even the AFL has finite resources.

Mungoball has a long history of teams emerging and then dying out. Only one foundation club has played all 108 seasons. The Titans are in dire straits, the Raiders are in the doldrums, and Cronulla are also struggling.

 

[D-Box]

The Force (even with Pocock, Sharpe and Gits) never got above 7th position. Amongst other reasons, the main one was that they can't get top talent over there - too far from the centre of rugby in Australia. Talk to anyone involved and they'll tell you that's THE massive problem.

Clearly, making money isn't the strong suit for of ANY Super rugby teams in Australia. So if it's about player dev, the argument is foregone: NSW creates about 50% of the semi/pro level players in Australia and yet there is only one Super team there. The Force could only survive with the the players who came from NSW/QLD.

Those making points about having two AFL teams in Syd or Bris and it not working totally miss the point - would the AFL, NRL or any other sport ever have had just ONE team in their home market (Melb for AFL) but instead dotted basket cases around Australia first?

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING?

We may have fucked ups few years back with this decision, but that's no reason to perpetuate it now

That sounds what the A-League did. One team per major center + central coast. Melbourne Heart/City and WSW were added later

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[Quick Hands]

Comparing to the NRL and AFL is an exercise in futility. Very different organisations with different ideology, access to sponsorship, and player development channels.

The ARU are further constrained by the fact that we just can't do whatever we want or even what we can afford. We have to negotiate with the unions of other countries - none of whom have AFL to compete with and where league does exist it's almost invisible. NZ and SAF have different priorities and face different issues.

 

[liquor box]

I think a second Sydney team needs to be owned by NSW Rugby and possibly look at renaming the Tahs.

To increase sponsorship both teams could have the same sponsors, this allows the brands to be in the media and seen by the public every week and the more often it is seen the more money you should get.

At the end of the season the best from both teams could be the NSW Tahs team for a clash against QLD for a revenue raising battle between rivals.

I am thinking of a similar set up to the Reds with two NRC teams.

The big benefit to NSW and to the Wallabies would be the ability to put players in teams where they will get a run. If NSW have two great fullbacks it make no sense for one to come off the bench every week when they could start for the other team. Obviously they dont change all the time but maybe when originally signed to Super Rugby they are placed into one team for a two year contract.

 

[TOCC]

Liquor box, i couldn't disagree more.. 'If' NSW had two teams then they would need to be completely independent, also I would argue that the Waratahs would need to be made completely independent of the NSWRU to ensure there is an equal playing field for both teams.

Having the two teams run independent of each other would encourage competition and initiative. Having them run under the same umbrella would only perpetuate the indolent attitude which already exists within Australian rugby.


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[Teh Other Dave]

The thing with a second Sydney team is that they're competing with the NSW state team.

As a Qld supporter, I'm not sure that I could support the competitor to the Qld state team. Likewise, NSW would need to consider a 'Sydney' team and a 'Western Sydney' team. Not sure if that would work either.

Interesting how this all evolved from a provincial competition.

 

[barbarian]

That's a massive one Dave. Would force a total rebrand of Waratahs. They can't be 'playing for NSW' any more!

 

[TOCC]

True that would be a major consideration, but I also think if it were to be possible anywhere in Australian then it would be Sydney. There seems to be plenty of rugby union fans in the state who remain apathetic towards the Tahs for whatever reason, whether it be due to political association with the NSWRU, or lack of engagement due to games been comparatively inaccessible for a large portion of the population.. Whatever the case there are certainly more rugby fans then the 15'000 who turn up at the Tahs games.


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[Train Without a Station]

Is there certainly more fans though?

There's undoubtedly more people yes. But have a look at the Western Sydney Shute Shield teams. They prop up the bottom of the ladder regularly. If hazard a guess to say they are some of the lease supported too.

How many subbies and junior clubs are in the west compares to the east and inner city?

 

[Marcelo]

That's a massive one Dave. Would force a total rebrand of Waratahs. They can't be 'playing for NSW' any more!

Playing for Sydney!

 

[barbarian]

Playing for Sydney!

Playing for Eastern and Northern Sydney more like it....... which is pretty much what they do now I suppose.

 

[Marcelo]

Few years ago would have been a good idea a second franchise in QLD, there are fewer professional teams from other codes and Union is popular there, for some reason Reds is the most popular Super Rugby side. But now is impossible with the current status of the Reds. The NSW market is saturated by so many NRL teams. They are everywhere

Playing for Eastern and Northern Sydney more like it... which is pretty much what they do now I suppose.

So they should be called: "The Roosters-Eagles" and the other team should be called: "Eels-Tigers" to attract League supporters

 

[TOCC]

Is there certainly more fans though?

absolutely there is, thats one thing I've learned since i moved to Sydney, its not like Brisbane where you have a radial PT network all feeding into the major stadiums, giving a Brisbane/Queensland sporting teams clear access to the wider Brisbane catchment.

In Sydney the Waratahs sit isolated and relatively inaccessible in the Eastern Suburbs, the current debate about the future of Sydney stadiums elaborates on this issue further and its also why there is no clear solution to the Sydney Stadium upgrades. Manly and Cronulla don't want to move to SFS because its going to disengage their traditional supporter base, Penrith and Parramatta crack the shits when they have to play finals matches at the SFS because its effectively an away game for them. Waratahs current location reflects their traditional and established supporter based so it doesn't make sense for them to move, but that doesn't mean there aren't a large number of supporters outside of that.

The only real comparison i can think of in Brisbane would be QEII Stadium, it's not central, it lacks PT and if the Reds were to move there it would leave the majority of fans north of the Brisbane River disengaged.

 

[liquor box]

The thing with a second Sydney team is that they're competing with the NSW state team.

As a Qld supporter, I'm not sure that I could support the competitor to the Qld state team. Likewise, NSW would need to consider a 'Sydney' team and a 'Western Sydney' team. Not sure if that would work either.

Interesting how this all evolved from a provincial competition.

I am a Reds supporter but do not consider myself a QLD supporter in sorts in general.

I see the Reds as a franchise that is based in Brisbane, they can move anywhere and I will support them.

I think it would be different if the players were mostly from Queensland and I realise a lot of them are but they are not a state team in my way of thinking, there is no origin about it.

 

[Train Without a Station]

TOCC, do you coach lower grade rugby? You've said a lot there but you've told me nothing.

Are there more fans?

They don't appear to be supporting Shute Shield teams in force. They aren't supporting the Rams in the NRC. The Waratahs weren't getting huge numbers to the regular season Waratahs games at Homebush. The Giants aren't getting huge numbers, the Wanderers aren't getting huge numbers. The Panthers crowds are low. The Eels are the same as the Waratahs.

There's plenty of people, but are there fans? They don't appear to be attending any rugby that's out west now, so what reason do you have to believe they exist?

Is there a strong junior rugby or subbies rugby presence in the region that I've missed?

People doesn't automatically equal bums on seats. Just ask the Melbourne Storm.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The biggest problem for the Force is that they produce fuck all local talent. Nearly all their players come from the 2 big union states, NSW and QLD.

I think Sydney is large enough to support another team but I don't think Brisbane could.

Would prefer an option, such as the Gold Coast which has a very large catchment region (including northern NSW). and probably a willing big money sponsor, namely Bond University.

The Force was a great concept but has failed to work. Time to put money and energy into another "region" or city, one that produces plenty of talent in it's own right.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The biggest problem for the Force is that they produce fuck all local talent. Nearly all their players come from the 2 big union states, NSW and QLD.

I think Sydney is large enough to support another team but I don't think Brisbane could.

Would prefer an option, such as the Gold Coast which has a very large catchment region (including northern NSW). and probably a willing big money sponsor, namely Bond University.

The Force was a great concept but has failed to work. Time to put money and energy into another "region" or city, one that produces plenty of talent in it's own right.

Kyle Godwin, the Haylett-Petty brothers, Kieran Longbottom, Justin Turner, Ollie Hoskins, Kane Koteka, Brad Lacey and a few others are all locals and have been produced thanks to the Force being in place. To say the Force haven't produced any talent is just plain false.