Western Force 2017

[dru]

Surely, just surely, we must be getting closer to the HC announcement?

 

[todd4]

The timeline mentioned at the fan night was end aug/early sept, so probably next week.

 

[dru]

The timeline mentioned at the fan night was end aug/early sept, so probably next week.

Thanks Todd.

 

[mst]

The timeline mentioned at the fan night was end aug/early sept, so probably next week.

Do you think it could be delayed by the Super Rugby review? (Potentially cutting a Aussie Super Rugby team).

 

[todd4]

Do you think it could be delayed by the Super Rugby review? (Potentially cutting a Aussie Super Rugby team).

The current SANZAR deal requires 5 aussie teams so nothing can change until that deal ends, so we've still got the Brumbies for a least another few years.

 

[mst]

The current SANZAR deal requires 5 aussie teams so nothing can change until that deal ends, so we've still got the Brumbies for a least another few years.

The real concern is that it is being considered as an real option due to declining ratings (and crowds especially in SA), thus the involvement of all host broadcasters in the talks. So the current TV deal provides no protection nor its it locked down, thus the review and potential for changes in 2018. The current deal will be set on games not teams so with the Kings already on the edge, folding an Aussie team to make it 16 is a real option for the ARU.

The comment was made in all seriousness (not trolling), as if the reports of the ARU discussions in relation to cutting a team are true, it would have implications on the contracting of a HC (especially the duration of the contract) for a team potentially in the frame for being cut (the ARU do effectively have a controlling stake in the Force).

I hope they don't cut an Aussie team but I fear it will be the Force or Rebels. I actually think the preferred option will be the Rebels (based on the fact the private ownership is still costing the ARU a lot of $$ and the owner can still pull out at any time), but as that deal is entrenched it's unlikely to be able to be changed quickly. Although the Brumbies might take themselves out if they lose the latest court adventure (seriously), they are to important as the ARU will want to keep the teams that perform so they would divert funds at the cost of one of the others.

The HC signing may give us some real insight to what going on in the background. Coincidentally, have you noticed the Brumbies are yet to announce a HC. Tell me that's not odd.

 

[lou75]

You raise some valid points mst, especially with regards to the HC contract at Force, and what about players? Who would want to sign up to a club with potentially limited tenure? It all becomes self fulfilling when the ARU start making these comments.

 

[todd4]

Personally I think the whole comp has become just too complicated by the the additional 3 teams. I would rather it had stayed at Super15. For example I found I was losing interest in the form of the SA teams this year as it seemed less relevant.
I don't have any inside info with the Force so I'll just have to be optimistic and hope that we stay in the comp. If there's no announcement on the coach by the end of next week I'll start to worry.

 

[dru]

@MST, that's one of the most depressing posts I have read in a while. Informative, but dispiriting.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The real concern is that it is being considered as an real option due to declining ratings (and crowds especially in SA), thus the involvement of all host broadcasters in the talks. So the current TV deal provides no protection nor its it locked down, thus the review and potential for changes in 2018. The current deal will be set on games not teams so with the Kings already on the edge, folding an Aussie team to make it 16 is a real option for the ARU.

The comment was made in all seriousness (not trolling), as if the reports of the ARU discussions in relation to cutting a team are true, it would have implications on the contracting of a HC (especially the duration of the contract) for a team potentially in the frame for being cut (the ARU do effectively have a controlling stake in the Force).

I hope they don't cut an Aussie team but I fear it will be the Force or Rebels. I actually think the preferred option will be the Rebels (based on the fact the private ownership is still costing the ARU a lot of $$ and the owner can still pull out at any time), but as that deal is entrenched it's unlikely to be able to be changed quickly. Although the Brumbies might take themselves out if they lose the latest court adventure (seriously), they are to important as the ARU will want to keep the teams that perform so they would divert funds at the cost of one of the others.

The HC signing may give us some real insight to what going on in the background. Coincidentally, have you noticed the Brumbies are yet to announce a HC. Tell me that's not odd.

Wasn't there an article at the mod way point of the competition that actually demonstrated that ratings were up overall across all the SANZAAR nations alongside crowds. In fact, it mentioned that Australian ratings were up and both attendance and viewership were at 2012 levels in New Zealand which were the previous high water mark.

It also mentioned while crowds were marginally down in SA viewership was actually slightly up. Pretty sure it was a Wayne Smoth article.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Personally I think the whole comp has become just too complicated by the the additional 3 teams. I would rather it had stayed at Super15. For example I found I was losing interest in the form of the SA teams this year as it seemed less relevant.
I don't have any inside info with the Force so I'll just have to be optimistic and hope that we stay in the comp. If there's no announcement on the coach by the end of next week I'll start to worry.

The issue this year wasn't the number of teams. It was the format. They should have stuck to the three conference structure. Would have caused a lot less confusion. As for the ditching of a team. It's a proposal not law. I would bet on further expansion before we see a contraction.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I have to agree on the lack of interest in Super rugby this year. The format needs tweaking because other than the Force games, I didn't really watch much of it, which is unusual for me. I don't know if it's too many teams or the structure, but something's not right.

 

[half]

Working Class Rugger.

Part of the ratings article you mentioned, up on last year but well down on previous years with SA very poor.

The Australian experience is being replicated in New Zealand where the television audience has gone from 5,078,900 four years ago to an alarming low of 3,409,400 last year but this year has surged to 4,451,900. Attendance figures have almost regained 2012 levels at 292,356 after bottoming out at 226,715 in 2014.
Alarmingly, South African attendance figures are on the slide, down to 419,336 this year, their lowest figure in five years. After peaking at 20.7 million viewers in 2012, Super Rugby is now holding 16.9 million in the republic, a modest increase on last season.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...s/news-story/24d39481c699d81f070e74500b77e869

 

[half]

The real concern is that it is being considered as an real option due to declining ratings (and crowds especially in SA), thus the involvement of all host broadcasters in the talks. So the current TV deal provides no protection nor its it locked down, thus the review and potential for changes in 2018. The current deal will be set on games not teams so with the Kings already on the edge, folding an Aussie team to make it 16 is a real option for the ARU.

The comment was made in all seriousness (not trolling), as if the reports of the ARU discussions in relation to cutting a team are true, it would have implications on the contracting of a HC (especially the duration of the contract) for a team potentially in the frame for being cut (the ARU do effectively have a controlling stake in the Force).

I hope they don't cut an Aussie team but I fear it will be the Force or Rebels. I actually think the preferred option will be the Rebels (based on the fact the private ownership is still costing the ARU a lot of $$ and the owner can still pull out at any time), but as that deal is entrenched it's unlikely to be able to be changed quickly. Although the Brumbies might take themselves out if they lose the latest court adventure (seriously), they are to important as the ARU will want to keep the teams that perform so they would divert funds at the cost of one of the others.

The HC signing may give us some real insight to what going on in the background. Coincidentally, have you noticed the Brumbies are yet to announce a HC. Tell me that's not odd.

Very interesting post and raises some issues.

My very limited understanding of how these things work, is there is an assumed minimum TV rating and when ratings fall below a line in the sand they can be re negotiated. The SA fall may be the trigger, and it could be overseas ratings are well down on forecasts.

Your point pertaining to the ability to change the TV deal is valid and I guess the only folk who know are SANDZZAR and the national unions.

 

[amirite]

Personally I think the whole comp has become just too complicated by the the additional 3 teams. I would rather it had stayed at Super15. For example I found I was losing interest in the form of the SA teams this year as it seemed less relevant.
I don't have any inside info with the Force so I'll just have to be optimistic and hope that we stay in the comp. If there's no announcement on the coach by the end of next week I'll start to worry.

I think the answer to this problem is more Japanese teams in Super Rugby and having the Top League become an ITM Cup type comp. HEAR ME OUT HERE...

There's basically 4 teams in the Japanese league that have any chance of winning each year. These teams have great set ups, good coaches, and a lot of money. The only thing that stops them from putting 80 points on other teams in their league each week is quotas of foreign players and the fact that it's hard to get a Japanese player to move teams due to culture (they're spread thin in a 16 team league!).

Well, if you give the Japanese 4 licenses, plus Argentina, that's a conference of 5. Then we have 4 conferences, and everything makes sense.

Presuming the top team of each conference automatically qualifies and the other 4 finalists are seeded, even if the Japanese/Argentinian conference is shit you only get one team qualifying (or misqualifying) in 4th seed but every other spot is perfectly fair. It's a nice, neat system.

 

[TOCC]

I couldn't disagree more about Japan..
In my opinion they have a comp which we as Australians could only dream about, a sustainable domestic competition flush with money, really the only downside is the level of competition, but that's slowly improving.

Relegating the Top League makes no sense, it's part of the fabric of Japanese Rugby and a big reason they have been progressively improving. Including 4 Japanese teams in Super Rugby not only degrades the quality of the competition but places some real pressure on the Japanese playing depth, Sunwolves struggled in 2016 with free reign, Japan doesn't have the depth for 2 Super Rugby teams let alone 4x

 

[dru]

At the same time, I dont like having Nations in Super Rugby with just one team. I'd like to see a second Argie and Japan team in the forward intentions.

The RSA Super Rugby system does nothing for the fans and mothing for the comp. Fans are backing to Currie Cup as a result. Jaguares and Sun Wolves need to be out of that environment.

Anyway, this is a Force thread. I really want to hear more around the coach.

And disbandonment is surely nonsense. Crack on Force, welcome part of the Aus rugby fraternity.

 

[mst]

@MST, that's one of the most depressing posts I have read in a while. Informative, but dispiriting.

Sorry dru and all Force fans. I am not trying to rein doom and gloom. I was actually trying to get a read on the battlefield (the ARU battlefield of continuing screw ups).

So, as some of this (above) discussion needs to be in another thread I will be brief.

TV deals work on a simple formula. If their is more money to be had (via rating that brings advertising revenue etc) TV will be at the table talking regardless of contracts. As they bought it they are stuck with the ratings issue. They knew that when they did their due diligence process.

The Super Rugby fix is about the format - but does relate to each countries individual problems.

SA issue - to many home derbies. The Currie cup (like the Mitre10) is enough domestic rugby. Super Rugby is about international competition. Thus why the rating and attendance slump correlates to the home derbies (last time they try an Aussie idea!)

Aus - need the home derbies as they don't have a domestic comp to underpin the Super Rugby team, create revenue or produce a supporter base. (EG: In NZ under a Super Rugby team are the Mitre10 teams, which represent certain unions. So its a pyramid effect with the cream at the top). So until the ARU grow some stones and bulldoze NSW rugby (Shute included) and cement some layers in to the pyramid in a cohesive fashion its going to continue to be a struggle and effect the game top to bottom.

As far as the Force, right now your CEO is doing some smart things like giving free entry to NRC games. The grassroots in WA may be too big and or strong for the ARU to cut the Force as it will weaken the ARU especially financially. So plenty of hope yet for the Force. A good season on field would be another great help.

So back to the HC question - anyone with insight or a good rumour even?

 

[Forcefield]

So back to the HC question - anyone with insight or a good rumour even?

If the ARU really wanted the Force gone, they'd give us Richard Graham back. After one season even the dyed in the wool fans will be begging the ARU to put us out of our misery.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Working Class Rugger.

Part of the ratings article you mentioned, up on last year but well down on previous years with SA very poor.

It is comparing figures to 2012 which were the high water mark for the competition. So while they aren't at that level (yet) they had in fact at that point in the season been trending upwards.