Wallabies v Springboks - Suncorp, Brisbane, 10th September 2016

[Brumby Runner]

Fair call. Not sure if you noticed though, but Cheika likes to try things that fail a couple of times before trying something else.

Too much credit to Cheika there Seb. Four tests in a row this year with a failing No 10 before he deigns to do anything about it. Fails in the second row with a lack of ball carrying (Simmons), and he brings Skelton back in for what the third time when he's always failed to rise to the occasion. Kerevi a couple of tests in No 12 and then removed although he was about the best performer on those occasions - not a fail but replaced anyway.

I think Cheika is a lot more hit and miss than you acknowledge.

 

[Twoilms]

it's pretty tiring people saying that oh 'x and y are doing this wrong, that's Cheika's responsibility'. Is it? is it really Cheika's responsibility to make sure a player can do the basics right like make a tackle. The only way i can see that as being Cheika's responsibility is if there was a better alternative that should obviously be starting ahead of that player making basic mistakes. The fact is, with DHP being shit at tackling on the wing, our locks sucking at everything, Moore being a shit captain etc. we literally have no one better.

 

[Viking]

it's pretty tiring people saying that oh 'x and y are doing this wrong, that's Cheika's responsibility'. Is it? is it really Cheika's responsibility to make sure a player can do the basics right like make a tackle. The only way i can see that as being Cheika's responsibility is if there was a better alternative that should obviously be starting ahead of that player making basic mistakes. The fact is, with DHP being shit at tackling on the wing, our locks sucking at everything, Moore being a shit captain etc. we literally have no one better.

And in DHP's case, I think 99% of this forum had DHP in there starting line-ups despite his poor defensive efforts against England. He was still clearly the best option.

No-one expecting him to continue the poor defensive lapses. But he did, so he should rightly go down the pecking order. No one to blame but himself.

 

[Wilson]

Cheika does have a say in the defensive structure though, watch how much dhp is being shuffled around and defending in unfamiliar positions, that's part of what's hurting his defence.

And how about kicking? Why is Foley still kicking for touch when quade, dhp and hodge are on the field, all with bigger and better boots? Isn't that Cheika's call?

 

[Joe Blow]

No better captain than Moore?

Pocock
Hooper
Genia
Slipper

and not in that particular order. Moore has been an excellent Wallaby but I don't think captain is his thing

 

[Viking]

Cheika does have a say in the defensive structure though, watch how much dhp is being shuffled around and defending in unfamiliar positions, that's part of what's hurting his defence.

And how about kicking? Why is Foley still kicking for touch when quade, dhp and hodge are on the field, all with bigger and better boots? Isn't that Cheika's call?

That's only half of DHP's problem though. Many of those misses he was in a position to make the tackle but he slips off. It's not like the opposition were hitting huge gaps in the "poor defensive structure". DHP is more to blame then the structure IMO.

I think in DHP's case is simply a case of a deficiency in his game that was exposed with the added pressure of Test rugby. He is fine at super level hidden at fullback. Test level different story.

Although the poor defensive structure certainly doesn't help. Especially with the constant overlaps that arise.

Completely agree on the kicking though. Ridiculously poor tactics.

 

[Wilson]

Not sure I'd call it hidden at fullback, he is a fullback, it's where he has experience and the defensive decisions are quite different to the front line. At times on Saturday he was even required to line up in the centres in defence - way out of his natural position. Yeah he didn't make those one on one tackles but he's not the man you want there in the first place. At the end of the day that looks like a combined selection/systems issue as much as anything else.

 

[Braveheart81]

There are clearly issues with the Wallabies defensive setup and far too many players are missing far too many one on one tackles.

This sentiment that DHP is being played out of position on the wing though is pretty misguided if you consider history both in Australia and elsewhere.

Plenty of fullbacks get their initial opportunities on the wing before later moving to fullback. Experienced test fullbacks also often get moved to the wing when there are two fullbacks in the starting XV.

I don't think it really passes muster to argue that the player deserves to be picked at fullback on the basis of having significant issues on the wing.

Now DHP may continue to be selected during this series and certainly deserves to be in the squad but it seems like a long bow to blame his selection on the wing for his one on one tackling issues.

 

[upthereds#!]

Nah that's BS. Cheika doesn't need to "own" the fact DHP missed so many tackles. Maybe you can blame one for inexperience and poor positioning but half of those missed tackles had nothing to do with being on the wing and everything to do with poor technique.

I don't recall Folau missing any tackles when he played wing in his 3 tests - first time playing that position too. (B&I Lions).

I'm sure many fullbacks/wingers have done the same in the past. DHP has no-one but himself to blame.

We used up the "not a winger" excuse during the England series, now it's over. he's simply a poor tackler.

Yeh fair. I think if we had tomane and mitchell available and ready to go Cheika would have put them there over DHP.

 

[Wilson]

To be clear I don't think he is necessarily out of position on the wing, I think he is out of position having to play wing the way he is being asked to, he's not rob Horne and using him in defence the same way doesn't make a lot if sense. We often only have two players back to take kicks, looking at our recent line-ups you'd think the best two would be folau and dhp, but that's not the way it's been shaking out lately.

 

[Strewthcobber]

DHP has missed a third of his tackles in the last two Super Rugby seasons, and been in the top 20 for missed tackles both years.

Izzy as an example has way fewer misses (24 v 8)

It shouldn't be a surprise to the coaching staff that he has issues one-on-one defence. He has to do better if he wants to continue to be selected but expecting him to be competent in the front line, despite his history, surely is on the coaches.

 

[Viking]

Not sure I'd call it hidden at fullback, he is a fullback, it's where he has experience and the defensive decisions are quite different to the front line. At times on Saturday he was even required to line up in the centres in defence - way out of his natural position. Yeah he didn't make those one on one tackles but he's not the man you want there in the first place. At the end of the day that looks like a combined selection/systems issue as much as anything else.

I disagree.

I don't think the argument "he didn't make those one on one tackles because he's not the man you want there in the first place." is a good enough reason to keep him in the team, or even move him to fullback.

Also refer to @bravehearts post. He sums it up well.

 

[Braveheart81]

To be clear I don't think he is necessarily out of position on the wing, I think he is out of position having to play wing the way he is being asked to, he's not rob Horne and using him in defence the same way doesn't make a lot if sense. We often only have two players back to take kicks, looking at our recent line-ups you'd think the best two would be folau and dhp, but that's not the way it's been shaking out lately.

Look at any team though and the number 10 very regularly drops back to field kicks and the number 8 often does as well. It isn't a static thing.

The Wallaby defensive structures definitely need work because we have leaked far too many tries this season and it is breaking down in multiple places but whoever is picked is going to be asked to fit into the structure we are playing. If they can't do that they're probably not going to keep getting picked.

It's not like DHP is doing enough otherwise to justify restructuring our defensive patterns to better suit him.

 

[Pfitzy]

It's not like DHP is doing enough otherwise to justify restructuring our defensive patterns to better suit him.

Remember the outcry when it was pointed out that Quade "wasn't defending in the front line"?

I pointed out to some Kiwis that guys like Beauden Barrett didn't either, and their response was "LEAVE POOR LITTLE BEAUDEN ALONE!!!"

 

[Viking]

DHP has missed a third of his tackles in the last two Super Rugby seasons, and been in the top 20 for missed tackles both years.

Izzy as an example has way fewer misses (24 v 8)

It shouldn't be a surprise to the coaching staff that he has issues one-on-one defence. He has to do better if he wants to continue to be selected but expecting him to be competent in the front line, despite his history, surely is on the coaches.

I don't think expecting your winger to make a one-one tackle against an opposite outside back is expecting too much, despite those stats you posted.

Especially given how physical DHP is on attack. It's not like he's Jessie Mogg and it's not like he's defending 1v1 against Kaino or Rettalick.

Not sure how we can keep blaming Cheika for having high expectations on what essentially is the basics of rugby. Tackling, passing, catching.

Sure we can blame the defensive structure - which is piss poor. But going as far as blaming missed 1 v 1's, dropped balls, poor passes - they are on the players.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I don't think expecting your winger to make a one-one tackle against an opposite outside back is expecting too much, despite those stats you posted.

Especially given how physical DHP is on attack. It's not like he's Jessie Mogg and it's not like he's defending 1v1 against Kaino or Rettalick.

Not sure how we can keep blaming Cheika for having high expectations on what essentially is the basics of rugby. Tackling, passing, catching.

Sure we can blame the defensive structure - which is piss poor. But going as far as blaming missed 1 v 1's, dropped balls, poor passes - they are on the players.

You have to develop strategies for the players you have, not the players you want.

DHP has issues with missing tackles. Foley has issues with clearing kicks. etc etc

The coach has to take this into account and develop a plan around it. This is why we can keep blaming Cheika - they are expected outcomes from the players he has selected.

We only have to look at the results over the last 5 tests to see what happens if he doesn't.

If he doesn't have the players - he has to change the strategy

 

[Braveheart81]

You have to develop strategies for the players you have, not the players you want.

DHP has issues with missing tackles. Foley has issues with clearing kicks. etc etc

The coach has to take this into account and develop a plan around it. This is why we can keep blaming Cheika - they are expected outcomes from the players he has selected.

We only have to look at the results over the last 5 tests to see what happens if he doesn't.

If he doesn't have the players - he has to change the strategy

I agree that this is a fair assessment overall but there is no strategy that gets around players missing one on one tackles.

It's a basic prerequisite.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I agree that this is a fair assessment overall but there is no strategy that gets around players missing one on one tackles.

It's a basic prerequisite.

So what should Cheika be doing with players that can't meet the basic pre-requisites?

 

[Braveheart81]

So what should Cheika be doing with players that can't meet the basic pre-requisites?

Work on those areas of their game or replace them.

Our defence across the board has been terrible and the standard needs to be higher. We missed about 40 tackles in the first Bledisloe and 27 in the 2nd. We have to do better than that.

 

[Lorenzo]

Not aware of mitchell being injured. If correct, not sure why he is in the squad all the way from France just to to rehab.

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Mitchell hasn't played footy since early April. Busted groin. Obviously someone we are desperate to have in the squad