Pumas vs Wallabies - Sunday 9th October @ Twickenham

[KOB1987]

Completely irrelevant to everything but Dan Carter supposedly tested positive for steroids. Saw this comment somewhere:

"Let's not over react but I think a blanket 10 year ban for all NZ rugby is a fair outcome."

Rokocoko and Imhoff as well, all Racing 92 players from the final. Carter's agent reckons he had a TUE (therapeutic use exemption)

 

[amirite]

Completely irrelevant to everything but Dan Carter supposedly tested positive for steroids. Saw this comment somewhere:


"Let's not over react but I think a blanket 10 year ban for all NZ rugby is a fair outcome."

Corticosteroids - a little different from what we imagine steroids to be. Mostly prescribed by doctors for tendon injuries in rehab, so presumably has some application in 'prehab' as well.

They DO give out exemptions for these drugs in rugby, so it's an evolving story.

3 blokes at the same club getting pinged is suspect though.

 

[Braveheart81]

Except the manager has said he didn't have any therapeutic use exemptions.

 

[Twoilms]

Corticosteroids - a little different from what we imagine steroids to be. Mostly prescribed by doctors for tendon injuries in rehab, so presumably has some application in 'prehab' as well.

They DO give out exemptions for these drugs in rugby, so it's an evolving story.

3 blokes at the same club getting pinged is suspect though.

Does it have the capacity for abuse though? Presumably it does otherwise why ban it.

 

[amirite]

Except the manager has said he didn't have any therapeutic use exemptions.

This is the quote I read from the manager was "Our understanding and assurances we’ve had are all the documents around TUEs were in place.”

It's here: http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/l...s/news-story/5c088c3ff2ce6f07e301c6e77c9948f5

Does it have the capacity for abuse though? Presumably it does otherwise why ban it.

Yeah, like I said it has prehabilitation applications. As an ageing contact sport athlete (as is Smoking Joe), it's a little suspect.

One could say it seems like he was trying to minimise the risk of injury in the last couple of years of his career.

TBH - I'm somewhat suspect that Johnny Wilkinson wasn't doing the same thing. Big claim to make, but the bloke was injured constantly throughout his mid-late 20s and then moves to France and stops having issues. Maybe Manu Tuilagi needs to spend some time in France.

But, this is all wild speculation. Like I said, this is a commonly prescribed drug and they do give exemptions for it. Could be an admin error on the club's part, could be on Carter's part, or it could all be BS and he was cheating.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Reckon the Argies will win this test

Chek continues with the same/similar selections and expects a different result. Go figure. Several players have a coating of teflon and personally I think Cheik is close to losing most of the team.

The only shining light to me has been the re-emergence of Genia's 2011 form.

Chek has had the team for 2 years now and his winning percentage is just 25% (in 2016) . Losses this week and then against the Blacks might see us drop to 20%/ Fuck me that is just poor.

It's a wonder some journos aren't calling for his head. Don't know any alternatives out there but nearly anybody should easily improve on his statistics.

Rant over for the day

 

[amirite]

But there's 2 changes in the starting forward and likely a very different looking bench. TBH, he's tried a fair few things selection wise.

It's a weird bone to pick.

 

[Twoilms]

Reckon the Argies will win this test

Chek continues with the same/similar selections and expects a different result. Go figure. Several players have a coating of teflon and personally I think Cheik is close to losing most of the team.

The only shining light to me has been the re-emergence of Genia's 2011 form.

Chek has had the team for 2 years now and his winning percentage is just 25% (in 2016) . Losses this week and then against the Blacks might see us drop to 20%/ Fuck me that is just poor.

It's a wonder some journos aren't calling for his head. Don't know any alternatives out there but nearly anybody should easily improve on his statistics.

Rant over for the day

It's not a wonder that Journos aren't calling for his head. Been through this a few times but he doesn't have the tools to do any better, and there are no better coaches available. The real problems with Australian rugby run far deeper than appointing a new coach, i.e. we are broke, have poor development systems in place for players and coaches, inadequately compete with 3 or 4 other dominant domestic sports, have poor upper level management etc etc etc. Almost everyone has noticed and acknowledged these things, except for you and you say the same thing before every test.

 

[Scrubber2050]

But there's 2 changes in the starting forward and likely a very different looking bench. TBH, he's tried a fair few things selection wise.

It's a weird bone to pick.

One forward change was forced, the other is the continued merry go round lock spot.

He's tried a few things but hasn't addressed the big ones and that's the weird thing for me.

 

[Scrubber2050]

It's not a wonder that Journos aren't calling for his head. Been through this a few times but he doesn't have the tools to do any better, and there are no better coaches available. The real problems with Australian rugby run far deeper than appointing a new coach, i.e. we are broke, have poor development systems in place for players and coaches, inadequately compete with 3 or 4 other dominant domestic sports, have poor upper level management etc etc etc. Almost everyone has noticed and acknowledged these things, except for you and you say the same thing before every test.

Maybe it's time to cast the net outside of Australia, although I freely admit I have always been a strong advocate for an Australian to coach the national team.

You obviously are happy with the way the team is moving forward, the win/loss ratios.

I am not and am happy to ask the hard question as opposed to just sitting on the fence saying globally, we have real problems.

 

[amirite]

One forward change was forced, the other is the continued merry go round lock spot.

He's tried a few things but hasn't addressed the big ones and that's the weird thing for me.

I don't think there's been a position other than 2, 7, 9, and 15 that hasn't seen a lot of movement this year.

I think in general there's been plenty of things tried and I think we need to realised we've unfortunately had to have a rebuild year and it's not that big of a deal.

The fact is, unless you're the ABs line-up changes and results don't go hand in hand at test level.

 

[Twoilms]

Maybe it's time to cast the net outside of Australia, although I freely admit I have always been a strong advocate for an Australian to coach the national team.

You obviously are happy with the way the team is moving forward, the win/loss ratios.

I am not and am happy to ask the hard question as opposed to just sitting on the fence saying globally, we have real problems.

I am not. I'm actually rather distressed that the sport i love is sinking into a pitt of mediocrity and irrelevance. Sacking a coach or throwing a few different players into the team will do exactly fuck all to fix that.

 

[tragic]

Does it have the capacity for abuse though? Presumably it does otherwise why ban it.

It's commonly abused in endurance sports such as cycling.
Armstrong used it. Wiggins and Froome both tested positive and miraculously came up with TUEs retrospectively.
It reduces pain and inflammation at high intensity exertion, and probably allows athletes to push further through the pain barrier. It has metabolic effects and probably also allows higher intensity training. It also aids recovery.
But it's used for asthma, saddle sores and other therapeutic uses which athletes miraculously develop to get TUEs with the aid of dodgy team doctors.
Amazing how many top level athletes have serious medical conditions that do not preclude their elite performance.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I agree that Cheika should be persevered with for the present. The assistant coaches and game plan might need a bit (quite a bit) of tweaking.

I think the criticisms of Cheika are more to do with the changes he's made against those he should have made (in the opinion of the many posters). If we are truly building after a RWC year, then why would players who are unlikely to make the 2019 RWC be continued in the side, eg Moore, TPN, Mumm, Fardy. Isn't it time for those spots to be tested for the future? Ready, Latu, Scoble at 2; Dempsey, Cottrell, Hanigan at 6?

Most of the changes Cheika has made seem to have little long term goal in mind - the continual cycling of locks, the Pooper, the two playmaker configuration at 10 and 12. Why not settle on a locking combination that at least shows potential for longevity, put a proper No 8 in at the back of the scrum (McMahon and Timani have been available all year but not used until recently) and try some players who have Super Rugby experience at 12 in the centres.

These are the changes most posters are wanting to see; positions filled by players who fill those spots at the level below, not by those who are second best in their nominal spots.

 

[KOB1987]

I agree that Cheika should be persevered with for the present. The assistant coaches and game plan might need a bit (quite a bit) of tweaking.

I think the criticisms of Cheika are more to do with the changes he's made against those he should have made (in the opinion of the many posters). If we are truly building after a RWC year, then why would players who are unlikely to make the 2019 RWC be continued in the side, eg Moore, TPN, Mumm, Fardy. Isn't it time for those spots to be tested for the future? Ready, Latu, Scoble at 2; Dempsey, Cottrell, Hanigan at 6?

Most of the changes Cheika has made seem to have little long term goal in mind - the continual cycling of locks, the Pooper, the two playmaker configuration at 10 and 12. Why not settle on a locking combination that at least shows potential for longevity, put a proper No 8 in at the back of the scrum (McMahon and Timani have been available all year but not used until recently) and try some players who have Super Rugby experience at 12 in the centres.

These are the changes most posters are wanting to see; positions filled by players who fill those spots at the level below, not by those who are second best in their nominal spots.

Because we'd be 0 from 8 if he ran out the team 'we' thought would be representing us in 2019 right away. Those guys you mention will no doubt be transitioned out of the side either by natural attrition or by choice in between now and then. TPN is the first casualty, he's gonski. Experience counts for a lot at test level, an inexperienced in-form newbie might seem like the right choice over an ageing has been, but he needs to learn to handle the pressure first otherwise it could shatter his confidence and he'll be ruined. It was all well and good in the amateur era to pluck a coal miner from Cessnock from relative obscurity and throw him into the test arena, but this is the professional era.

We've blooded 10 players already this year, no doubt more to come on the EOYT. Let's see how we are going this time next year, it hasn't been the best year obviously but I'm of the belief there is some method to what is seemingly madness to some.

 

[mst]

Because we'd be 0 from 8 if he ran out the team 'we' thought would be representing us in 2019 right away. Those guys you mention will no doubt be transitioned out of the side either by natural attrition or by choice in between now and then. TPN is the first casualty, he's gonski. Experience counts for a lot at test level, an inexperienced in-form newbie might seem like the right choice over an ageing has been, but he needs to learn to handle the pressure first otherwise it could shatter his confidence and he'll be ruined. It was all well and good in the amateur era to pluck a coal miner from Cessnock from relative obscurity and throw him into the test arena, but this is the professional era.

We've blooded 10 players already this year, no doubt more to come on the EOYT. Let's see how we are going this time next year, it hasn't been the best year obviously but I'm of the belief there is some method to what is seemingly madness to some.

Most of the 10 blooded have been through necessity.

So we can be proud of the 2x certificates of participation from the RC and Bledisloe and 3rd place in the rankings and a year behind in our development compared to our rivals for what? A few wins?

I find it incredible that we can get one week past GF weekend where players in their teens are stars and integral to the success of the teams playing and Rugby is still so adverse to the concept of throwing younger players in. Talk about stuck on the past!

 

[Double Agent]

It's commonly abused in endurance sports such as cycling...
... But it's used for asthma, saddle sores and other therapeutic uses ...

So Aaron Smith is no doubt using it too...

...sorry

 

[KOB1987]

Most of the 10 blooded have been through necessity.

So we can be proud of the 2x certificates of participation from the RC and Bledisloe and 3rd place in the rankings and a year behind in our development compared to our rivals for what? A few wins?

I find it incredible that we can get one week past GF weekend where players in their teens are stars and integral to the success of the teams playing and Rugby is still so adverse to the concept of throwing younger players in. Talk about stuck on the past!

Which rivals? England peaked for the 2015 RWC in 2016 because of poor selections, coaching and management leading up to the world cup, and the All Blacks managed a seamless transition this year because of (partially) good succession planning but moreso because they have superior depth to every other rugby nation.

Our record against the other 2 countries we have played at this stage is no different to any other year. Our lead up to the RWC was far from ideal but we were still navigated into the final, sure we had some luck too, but in the process we expended a lot of our resources. We are currently in the midst of a serious rebuilding process and I couldn't give a rats if it's not bearing fruit in year 1 as long as we are heading in the right direction.

I don't doubt that the results this year are below even what the most pessimistic would have predicted, last weekend was a classic opportunity blown, as were 2 of the England tests. What I do doubt is that playing another half a dozen rookies would have yielded a better result and more importantly made us stronger in the future.

NRL is completely different, it's a domestic competition, the clubs have salary caps to work within and they need to blend a mix of rising talent, dirt trackers and the Origin stars. Just because it's pumped in the media doesn't make it anywhere near the standard or pressure of international rugby.

 

[Brumby Runner]

England started planning for the 2003 RWC years ahead by sending a team of nobodies, including one Jonny Wilkinson, out here on tour and got thrashed by something like 60 points at Brisbane iirc.

Our record this year would hardly be catastrophically worse had a real No 12 and a potentially real No 8 been brought in during the England tests, not to forget the selection of Rob Horne on the wing as well - just holding up the development of DHP or Hodge by those tests he played to compensate for Foley's unsatisfactory defensive efforts in the 10 channel.

These are a couple of the areas where Cheika seems to be blinded. What's more, giving either Hodge or Kerevi an opportunity at 12 could free up another wing spot for a specialist like Speight, Morohan or English to come in.

 

[mst]

Which rivals? England peaked for the 2015 RWC in 2016 because of poor selections, coaching and management leading up to the world cup, and the All Blacks managed a seamless transition this year because of (partially) good succession planning but moreso because they have superior depth to every other rugby nation.

Our record against the other 2 countries we have played at this stage is no different to any other year. Our lead up to the RWC was far from ideal but we were still navigated into the final, sure we had some luck too, but in the process we expended a lot of our resources. We are currently in the midst of a serious rebuilding process and I couldn't give a rats if it's not bearing fruit in year 1 as long as we are heading in the right direction.

I don't doubt that the results this year are below even what the most pessimistic would have predicted, last weekend was a classic opportunity blown, as were 2 of the England tests. What I do doubt is that playing another half a dozen rookies would have yielded a better result and more importantly made us stronger in the future.

NRL is completely different, it's a domestic competition, the clubs have salary caps to work within and they need to blend a mix of rising talent, dirt trackers and the Origin stars. Just because it's pumped in the media doesn't make it anywhere near the standard or pressure of international rugby.

So let stick to the current not live in the past.

Rivals – the ones we play regularly we struggle to beat like the Pumas who are a bigger threat each game as the improve unlike the static Wallabies and the Boks who even though they are dealing with a new coach, quotas, and injuries has already touched us up when they went basic old school with zero attack and all kicks.

The AB’s should always be the benchmark. As you highlight; they do what we don’t with the same humans as we have. Just minus the BS and in a coordinated manner not a cluster.

It’s depressing as you highlight that our record against the rivals is the same as other years. I think we have set the bar pretty low and yet we still struggle with it year in year out and the closet we come to change is the excuses.

England conveniently is a good example of what happens when you clear the decks of the BS, excuses, long-term acceptance of mediocre performances, institutionalised thinking and methods (one of the boys club coaches after another). Almost overnight with most of the same cattle – results. They even had the stones to pull in a teen unknown who is a world beater in Itoje and keep bringing in the new blood.

Actually, a lot of people saw these results coming and can see it continuing. This team, its direction and coaching regime is best equated to canned fruit – it’s the preserved poor quality twin of the fresh stuff that was past its best a long time ago.

This could apply equally to our Super Rugby teams - it's a domestic competition, the clubs have salary caps to work within and they need to blend a mix of rising talent with the old hard-heads. Just because it's pumped in the media doesn't make it anywhere near the standard of international rugby.

As for the reference to the teens, it holds for the AFL as well. The Bulldogs were reliant on at least 2 x 19 year old this year. They didn’t make excuse for them, they let their on-field performance speak for themselves. Athleticism and talent don’t need the medias help. The only sport that seems to have evidence that you improve with age (in to the 30’s) is distance cycling.