Pumas vs Wallabies - Sunday 9th October @ Twickenham

[mst]

Its interesting to contemplate the observation from Iain Payten: there are only six starters from the World Cup final starting this weekend at Twickenham.

Most supporters have been calling for change and its been slow and almost forced by injuries etc.

There have also been calls to move away from the forwards centric game plan that will be used this game after Cheika selected a huge forward pack.

The Pumas defence is probably the most vulnerable of the RC teams yet with the opportunity to use the backs he has taken the route of using the forwards.

This game would provide the perfect opportunity to show our back line is potent and can get a shot away - or remain as threatening as a panda!

 

[cyclopath]

Its interesting to contemplate the observation from Iain Payten: there are only six starters from the World Cup final starting this weekend at Twickenham.

Most supporters have been calling for change and its been slow and almost forced by injuries etc.

There have also been calls to move away from the forwards centric game plan that will be used this game after Cheika selected a huge forward pack.

The Pumas defence is probably the most vulnerable of the RC teams yet with the opportunity to use the backs he has taken the route of using the forwards.

This game would provide the perfect opportunity to show our back line is potent and can get a shot away - or remain as threatening as a panda!

I think if the forwards can really get some from foot ball, the backs could have a good day. With some Puma injuries, chances are better. But the piggies will need to be more accurate at securing our own ball faster and more efficiently. They'll not get a better chance to show it.

 

[emuarse]

I genuinely believe KB (Kurtley Beale) would've brought the creativity and short kicking game we needed to overcome the Poms earlier this year. He probably would've made the difference in at least the second test. Had we won a couple of those our entire season would have looked completely different. He probably would've made the difference against SA as well. He was in the form of his life before his injury. Funny how these things go.

He'd be the link we are missing between Cooper/Foley and Kerevi. Plus he brings the same enthusiasm Kerevi brings which, in my opinion, is desperately lacking in the Wobs at the moment.

To'omua, too, could have provided that link (less effectively, though). We were on top of the English in the third test till he was removed. A real 12 could've changed so much.

How exciting would this backline be:

10. Cooper/Foley (depending on your state bias)
11. DHP
12. KB (Kurtley Beale)
13. Kerevi
14. Naivalu/Koroibete
15. Folau

I really have been trying not to bite my tongue re state bias comments, but your remark is systematic of your thinking. Recently Foley's form has for whatever reason dropped away as a No. 10. Can't you see that? His play in the pivotal role has become too steriotype.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I take it the extra person on the bench"to be omitted" is two fold in that it keeps the opposition guessing and gives recognition to the 24th player who has trained well but is just not needed....

1. I doubt the announcement of the bench split evokes this kinda response in the opposition camp.....

2. Much more likely but you can only dangle the carrot for so long, sooner or later you've gotta let them have a snack or they'll lose interest.

 

[gel]

I just don't get the one to be omitted thing.

I also don't get the constant talk of "needing competition for spots". Surely professional athletes are motivated enough by wanting to be (and beat) the best and being selected for the team just provides the opportunity to do that.

The talk of competition for spots almost makes it seem job done just to be picked. I recognise that they may just be sound bites for the media, but they shouldn't even be saying it then, I reckon.

I don't think the pumas will get close for this one though. I think they are still struggling with the travels of the championship and will be good in another year or two. The travels and playing Wobblies, boks and kiwis takes its toll.

 

[Twoilms]

I really have been trying not to bite my tongue re state bias comments, but your remark is systematic of your thinking. Recently Foley's form has for whatever reason dropped away as a No. 10. Can't you see that? His play in the pivotal role has become too steriotype.

I agree that his form has waned but it'll wax again. I also agree that Cooper has been marginally better than Foley. But then i think that Cooper, if both are in form, is a worse player. I think he's erratic and lacks the game management of a test number 10. Think Foley lacks the kicking out of hand of a test 10 that Quade has. Quade can't take on the line like Foley etc. It's really not a clear cut decision between the two hence the glib comment about state bias.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I call BS on that twolims.

Most point to Foley's RWC as evidence of his great ability as a 10.

In that tournament he had 1 try assist. We failed to score a single try against Wales and had our lowest winning margin against Fiji since the game turned professional two decades earlier.

In addition, proven test performers like Folau and Kuridrani has fairly anonymous tournaments. Maybe we can say Izzy was purely due to injury. But who has ever used the words "X player looks really good running off Foley"?

Foley has his positives, but to say that Foley has better game management ignores many of his flaws and just fits with the general theme over the last 2 years where if you say enough things about a player regardless of evidence, it's just accepted as a fact.

But at least we don't see erratic mistakes like kicks changed down, missing kicks for touch, etc. from Foley I guess.

 

[Twoilms]

I call BS on that twolims.

Most point to Foley's RWC as evidence of his great ability as a 10.

In that tournament he had 1 try assist. We failed to score a single try against Wales and had our lowest winning margin against Fiji since the game turned professional two decades earlier.

In addition, proven test performers like Folau and Kuridrani has fairly anonymous tournaments. Maybe we can say Izzy was purely due to injury. But who has ever used the words "X player looks really good running off Foley"?

Foley has his positives, but to say that Foley has better game management ignores many of his flaws and just fits with the general theme over the last 2 years where if you say enough things about a player regardless of evidence, it's just accepted as a fact.

But at least we don't see erratic mistakes like kicks changed down, missing kicks for touch, etc. from Foley I guess.

Okay. I disagree with some of that and agree with other points. I was just pointing out that its a divisive issue and often the only determinative factor is what side of the state line you fall.

Edit: Kurtley Beale looks really good running off Foley...

 

[Forcefield]

I'm curious where the average Force, Rebels and Brumbies supporters (ie no state bias) fall in the Cooper v Foley debate. I strongly prefer Cooper myself. He has his downsides but I reckon we'll see smoother play with a more settled spell in the 10 jersey.

 

[Braveheart81]

We are looking for guys right now to step up and there is a void. Our next gen is low 20's to late teens, and we are looking at school boys as the next best options. Its incomparable.

In a perfect world your points are inarguable.

But we don't have that luxury and unless we take some chances, expedite the process and accept that there will be casualties in the process until we can effectively generation jump and produce a player surplus we are consigning ourselves to the same fate for the foreseeable future. However with the decline in participation and poor results its its plausible that the approach may be what "breeds" us out of players and a professional sport.

What does taking some chances mean?

It's not like we're selecting debutants who are absolutely dominating relative to both our current team and our opposition. None of our new players are coming in and making us think that their debut should have happened a considerable time sooner.

In my view it is fool's gold to suggest that it would be better for the Wallabies if we debuted some of these players when they were significantly younger. I don't think there is anything to be gained from that.

A player needs to be ready for test rugby before it is beneficial to select them.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

I'm closing in on preferring cooper but he's not there yet for me. Still a bit too much of a liability tho much improved on his past. Foley is just steady. His kicking game is atrocious and I think if he were to partner with a more developed hodge at 12 who could take the kicking pressure off I'd be happier but generally I just think Australian 12 stocks are so far behind NZ, England and South Africa when Pollard is fit.
Exact of the matter is Australian depth isn't there in the inside backs. Potentially building but just as it does, we usually lose a tier offshore.

 

[Twoilms]

I'm closing in on preferring cooper but he's not there yet for me. Still a bit too much of a liability tho much improved on his past. Foley is just steady. His kicking game is atrocious and I think if he were to partner with a more developed hodge at 12 who could take the kicking pressure off I'd be happier but generally I just think Australian 12 stocks are so far behind NZ, England and South Africa when Pollard is fit.
Exact of the matter is Australian depth isn't there in the inside backs. Potentially building but just as it does, we usually lose a tier offshore.

They aren't too bad when we have everyone fit and available. KB (Kurtley Beale), To'omua and Gits (perhaps not any more) with Hodge potentially in the future. Could do worse..

 

[Highlander35]

Cooper. By a bees dick. If you're not going to kick penalties to build leads, Cooper will make more tries.

Foley can cover the back 3 and maybe now 12, which is better off the bench from that POV too.

Would like Hodge at 12 alongside him with Kerevi/Kuridrani outside, but those two at 12/13 could work as well too.

 

[Dave Beat]

Cooper. By a bees dick. If you're not going to kick penalties to build leads, Cooper will make more tries.

Foley can cover the back 3 and maybe now 12, which is better off the bench from that POV too.

Would like Hodge at 12 alongside him with Kerevi/Kuridrani outside, but those two at 12/13 could work as well too.

Our 2 leading soup try scorers are playing different positions in test rugby.
Izzy scored the most, Hodge 2nd.

 

[Gillys_ghost]

Does anyone have an actual statistical comparison of cooper v foley for their entire test careers? I know stats dont paint the full picture but at least they are objective

 

[Brumby Runner]

Cooper well in front of Foley on individual skills and a mile ahead in terms of managing the backline plays and putting pressure on defenses. Foley's best spot is on the bench.

 

[Gillys_ghost]

OK so i just wasted an hour and a half compiling Quade Coopers Test Stats off of ESPN Scrum. for all stats except Tries and Win percentage only 60 games out of Coopers 62 were counted as there were 2 games against Italy where there were no stats available which is probably bad for Quade since one of them was his debut and he carved Italy up that game. so for most of these stats its based off 60 games. obviously there's a margin of error here since I'm not an analyst or a computer so keep that in mind. having said that it should still give us a good idea on how hes performed

quade Cooper Test Stats

Win percentage: 62.09
Tries: 8
Try Assists: 34 = 0.56 per game
Metres Run: 1952 = 32.53 per game
Linebreaks: 21 = 0.35 per game
Defenders Beaten: 85 = 1.41 per game
Offloads: 79 = 1.31 per game
Turnovers: 90 = 1.5 per game
Tackles: 240/302 = 79.47%
Penalties: 28 = 0.46 per game

2 tests not counted for Cooper - both against italy

I'm working on one for Foley right now

 

[Gillys_ghost]

These are Bernard Foleys Stats for his 35 games. once again there is of course a margin of error but they should still paint a reasonably accurate picture.


Bernard Foley Test Stats

Win percentage: 52.85%
Tries: 9
Try Assists: 9 = 0.25 per game
Metres Run: 991 = 28.31 per game
Linebreaks: 28 = 0.8 per game
Defenders Beaten: 53 = 1.51 per game
Offloads: 23 = 0.65 per game
Turnovers: 48 = 1.37 per game
Tackles: 138/189 = 73%
Penalties: 8 = 0.22 per game

 

[Sully]

Many people point out Foley's kicking as a reason to keep him in the team but is it significantly better than Cooper?

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

 

[Gillys_ghost]

i cant get those stats off ESPN Scrum because they only tell me how many kicks have been made and what sort of kick it was, but it doesnt say how many were attempted. i believe TWAS posted the kicking stats earlier though which had Cooper at 72% and Foley at 75% ( if i remember correctly) which i hardly think is enough to make Foley a better candidate.

The stats indicate that Quade is more then twice as likely to create a try, is more likely to beat a defender and to get more metres, however Foley is much better for linebreaks and considering Foley has played 35 tests to Quades 62, his strike rate for scoring tries is much more impressive. no surprises Quade is much better at offloading and a slightly better defender. Foley averages Slightly less Turnovers Conceded per game and is much less likely to be penalised.