Australia v Italy, Suncorp Stadium, 24th June 2017 @ 3:00pm

[Dan54]

Mate - front towers are always trying to cheat (the good ones and us not so good ones.) The true art is cheating, while making the other guy look like he is.

Cheers TSR, exact point I trying to make!!! Isn't it great part of our game and why it's called the dark arts!!

 

[TSR]

I see our lack of fitness as the most simple of premises FF (Folau Fainga'a).

Are they conditioned well enough - not be a long shot.

It manifests itself in lots of ways - breakdown of skills under pressure, lack of impact in contact, lack of second efforts/realignment/kick chase, lazy penalties under pressure.

Conditioning won't fix all the other issues, but it will assist them.

And it is very fixable - although probably not within playing season.

 

[tragic]

Yet when I said earlier in this thread that Foley had a 'dissapointing' game someone disputed it.I don't think Quades the solution, I don't know who is, but Foleys form is concerning heading into the TRC.

He was ranked top 3 on every tah posters 3,2,1. No 1 on most.
But he didn't feature in any of the non tah posters top 3.
It's just provincial bias. (Both ways)
I agree 10 is a real problem. Much more than the quibble over back rower spots when there's so little point of difference in this area.
Unfortunately there's not a solution in the current 10s on offer.
I'm starting to think we need to look again at who might be able to step up from other positions given the lack of real options in our established 10s.

 

[KOB1987]

Yeah, looks like the latest excuse to me, though I do recall it was used last year also to excuse the poor performances against the English. Maybe some of the replacements need to be used a bit earlier? But of course, that would mean the coach stepping up and admitting at least to himself that just maybe he is somewhat to blame.

Is it an excuse? Or just something that needs to be worked on? I don't think we need an excuse for yesterday, it was a game where we got ourselves into a situation where we could have lost, and then clicked into gear and ended up winning convincingly. There are many things we need to work on and improve, and we are a long way off being number 1 in the world. But is that because the coaches are substandard or the players or a bit of both? Are all the things you'd do if you were the coach going to propel us beyond our capabilities? I don't see too much arrogance amongst either the coaches or the players, I think they are all very much aware of their shortcomings. Just because they are doing things differently to what you'd do if you launched yourself into a professional sporting career doesn't mean they are the wrong things. In fact when they make decisions they think they are the right decisions. One thing you can't criticise Cheika about is his passion and his belief.

 

[TSR]

He was ranked top 3 on every tah posters 3,2,1. No 1 on most.
But he didn't feature in any of the non tah posters top 3.
It's just provincial bias. (Both ways)

I noticed that too - and I guess your conclusion is fair enough.

The average punter (and I include myself there) sees and misses lots of different things. In a game where it was pretty hard to pick 3 people who deserved points, a guy would did some really good things and some really poor things (IMO), but touches the ball more than most is likely to draw a range of opinions.

 

[cyclopath]

I still maintain the wallabies biggest issue is lack of direction during attack phase. Foley as playmaker is seriously lacking at test level if we want to be challenging world top 3 ranking. Closely followed by an inexperienced and still unbalanced forward pack not performing consistently.

Here's my view (again) of notable incidents involving the wallabies "playmaker" Bernard Foley.

The following points are played against a rugby minnow, world rank 15th Italy....

1st min Foley Knocks on.
1st min Foley and Folou give away offside penalty.
3rd min Foley throws non pressured pass way too high ending in a knock on.
4th min Poor unpressured exit kick.
6th min Foley falls for a dummy pass leading too Italy potential try(disallowed).
6th min Another poor touch finder foley kick.
15th min Great touch finder off penalty
16th min Good Foley inside short ball for line break assist.
18th min Foley converts from sideline
28th min Foley knocks on again.
34th min Foley doesn't trust hunt beside him and makes the wrong judgment call tackling the wrong guy, allowing a clear linebreak for a try between himself and Genia.

Half time..so far zero playmaking involvement in tries so far for foley. Hunt doing a better playmaker job!
42nd min Foley 10metres out steps and Beats 1 and nearly scores.
44th min foley involved in freakish flick pass leading to Aus try.
56th min supports Genias linebreak well, but pass way over his head
60th min Foley knocks on cold 5m out in front of posts...AGAIN
76th min foley slips thru 3 players for a 7m try
79th min.foley finally directly involved in setting up a team try...beats and sucked in 3players to allow a 50 sprint race try.

I'll keep it simple...I've said it before..if that was Quade Coopers rap sheet...he'd never play again...yet still despite showing a solid at super rugby level at best form...he's continually chosen as the Wallabies playmaker. Truely boggles my mind. A simple addition of a real playmaker like Hunt at centre has transformed our backline 3fold. Our wingers are scoring and Folou is FAAAR more involved once again. Yet Foley is rarely involved in our tries.
Last week vs Scotland..Foleys only try involvement was a cross kick to a FREAKish Folou catch n score. Say no more.



Anyway.I say let Quade play.or start blooding young new talent if your that scared of the publics opinion to let Cooper start..even against a team we should be flogging like struggling Italy. IMHO

Watching the replay now - so far you got the first 2 wrong, so I am less inclined to trust the accuracy of this assessment fully. Ala'alatoa knocked it on - the pass was in front of him; the offside was called against no particular player buy Foley was one of the furthest behind the gain line when it was called so I think you're guessing.
Foley didn't have an amazing game, but had an OK game and I think few players really stood out for mine. I gave him a point in the 3-2-1s simply because he scored 1 try, set up another and kicked 5/6. He made his touch kicks, variable in distances, true. He made tackles. But unspectacular. You mention playmaking, but Cheika plays 2 playmakers and has them shifting around - did it when at the Tahs, does it now if he can. Is it the best option? That's an argument for another time, but maybe, maybe not.
I've been very supportive of Quade in the past but not even his most ardent fan could argue he has been in good form this year.
We have no real 10 options beyond them.

 

[fatprop]

He was ranked top 3 on every tah posters 3,2,1. No 1 on most.
But he didn't feature in any of the non tah posters top 3.
It's just provincial bias. (Both ways)
I agree 10 is a real problem. Much more than the quibble over back rower spots when there's so little point of difference in this area.
Unfortunately there's not a solution in the current 10s on offer.
I'm starting to think we need to look again at who might be able to step up from other positions given the lack of real options in our established 10s.

We could start by flicking the four average foreign 10's playing for aus sides

 

[wamberal]

We could start by flicking the four average foreign 10's playing for aus sides

It is bizarre in the extreme that Larkham cannot identify and groom a good young Aussie 10. If he cannot, who can? And if he cannot, what on earth is he doing in the Wallabies coaching set-up?

 

[fatprop]

Oh, and this mind set that everything has to revolve around "a" playmaker, I am not sure if that is actually the case anymore.

The best description I have seen for the way the ABs play is from the NRL and called "contract football"

it works like this: you have a ‘contract’ to pass the ball to your team mate if he is in a better position to me.

“If you played structured football, the way they do in the NRL these days, you make it easier for the defence to get three men into the tackle to do all that stuff I don’t like – wrestling,” Walker told Discord."
https://stevemascord.com/2014/09/25...hompsons-contract-football-save-rugby-league/

Swap "NRL" for the "Wobs" and ...........................

How many times last night was it Barrett or Cruden that the play revolved about? To me those decisions are spread throughout the side and that makes it much harder to break down

 

[A mutterer]

T smith got schooled, there's no need for arrows etc

did anyone else notice the italian 3's bind was over the should and on top of the back?

 

[Forcefield]

We could start by flicking the four average foreign 10's playing for aus sides

And replace them with?

Don't get me wrong, there are a handful of guys that I would love to see back (Ben Lucas, Zack Holmes, Sam Greene) but they probably won't come. I don't mind Peter Grant as he is only a back up for Lance anyway. Hawera is in for an unfortunate situation with Lealiianfo.

I think we need a couple more years of NRC where young prospects feel like they can have a genuine chance to show their stuff. How Greene was overlooked for McIntyre I'll never know.

It is bizarre in the extreme that Larkham cannot identify and groom a good young Aussie 10. If he cannot, who can? And if he cannot, what on earth is he doing in the Wallabies coaching set-up?

Is it? Does it not occur that maybe Larkham is just a shit coach? Seems to me like the Wallabies attack is getting worse, the Brumbies attack is getting worse and several inside backs that have gone over from the Force seem worse than when they were over here (Godwin, Jooste).

A couple of years back it was reported about Link that someone high (ish) up in the ARU said a prop should never be the national coach. It reminded me of Matt Burke saying you can't comment on Super Rugby until you've played. There is sense that pedigree matters more than talent. Dave Wessels was reportedly a shitty player, but few could argue that he isn't a good coach.

 

[Quick Hands]

It is bizarre in the extreme that Larkham cannot identify and groom a good young Aussie 10. If he cannot, who can? And if he cannot, what on earth is he doing in the Wallabies coaching set-up?

A question that many of us have asked.

 

[Quick Hands]

We could start by flicking the four average foreign 10's playing for aus sides

I generally agree, but let's look deeper into this. Why are there 4 fairly average foreign 10s playing super rugby in Australia?

Either:

1. There are no local players avaiable who are good enough, AND/OR

2.There are local players, but our development structures can't identify them, AND/OR

3. We can identify them but our coaching and development structures are inadequate to bring them to the required level, AND/OR

4. We try to identify our good players too early and once they are in the pathway we do almost nothing to try to identify players from outside a fairly narrow group

 

[KOB1987]

5. The franchises who recruit the fairly average foreign players think it's a better way to win games in the impending season.

Which is probably closest to 1. above. It's a short term fix, well it's meant to be anyway, but it massively impedes on the development of our own players.


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[I like to watch]

The ARU funds the Super teams, they should veto these recruitment decisions.

 

[KOB1987]

Agreed ILTW. Or have a constraint like only one foreign player in each role across all franchises. Probably hard to police, e.g. Recruit a center but play him at 10. But some attempt to limit it should be made.


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[cyclopath]

On the fitness issue, I don't think it is THE excuse for what we are seeing over the past few weeks. We should have won all 3 games quite comfortably if not for some very poor option taking and errors at times. Plus, Scotland played very well. Poor conditioning can contribute to poor decision making and execution, but I think the main roots of the problem are deeper and more complex.
But, if anyone doesn't think fitness among Aus Super Rugby teams and the Wallabies is not an issue that needs some serious attention, they are kidding themselves.
And some of the suggestions about "just take control of your diet" and "do another run" is great, if it was 1976.
I think the focus of rugby S&C in Australia has really lost its way over much of the past 5-6 years. If you look at the NZ model of training, it is very player specific and it is nothing like what most of us ever did training for rugby. I'd wager the work they do in the gym is quite different to that of most Aus players. The ability of all their players in collisions shows great core strength, and they keep the pace going all game.
So, Cheika and Moore probably have a point, but I really don't think it was the time to be raising it. That might have been months ago.

 

[wamberal]

Or years ago.

 

[bigmac]

I still maintain the wallabies biggest issue is lack of direction during attack phase. Foley as playmaker is seriously lacking at test level if we want to be challenging world top 3 ranking. Closely followed by an inexperienced and still unbalanced forward pack not performing consistently.

Here's my view (again) of notable incidents involving the wallabies "playmaker" Bernard Foley.

The following points are played against a rugby minnow, world rank 15th Italy....

1st min Foley Knocks on.
1st min Foley and Folou give away offside penalty.
3rd min Foley throws non pressured pass way too high ending in a knock on.
4th min Poor unpressured exit kick.
6th min Foley falls for a dummy pass leading too Italy potential try(disallowed).
6th min Another poor touch finder foley kick.
15th min Great touch finder off penalty
16th min Good Foley inside short ball for line break assist.
18th min Foley converts from sideline
28th min Foley knocks on again.
34th min Foley doesn't trust hunt beside him and makes the wrong judgment call tackling the wrong guy, allowing a clear linebreak for a try between himself and Genia.

Half time..so far zero playmaking involvement in tries so far for foley. Hunt doing a better playmaker job!
42nd min Foley 10metres out steps and Beats 1 and nearly scores.
44th min foley involved in freakish flick pass leading to Aus try.
56th min supports Genias linebreak well, but pass way over his head
60th min Foley knocks on cold 5m out in front of posts...AGAIN
76th min foley slips thru 3 players for a 7m try
79th min.foley finally directly involved in setting up a team try...beats and sucked in 3players to allow a 50 sprint race try.

I'll keep it simple...I've said it before..if that was Quade Coopers rap sheet...he'd never play again...yet still despite showing a solid at super rugby level at best form...he's continually chosen as the Wallabies playmaker. Truely boggles my mind. A simple addition of a real playmaker like Hunt at centre has transformed our backline 3fold. Our wingers are scoring and Folou is FAAAR more involved once again. Yet Foley is rarely involved in our tries.
Last week vs Scotland..Foleys only try involvement was a cross kick to a FREAKish Folou catch n score. Say no more.



Anyway.I say let Quade play.or start blooding young new talent if your that scared of the publics opinion to let Cooper start..even against a team we should be flogging like struggling Italy. IMHO

Good analysis here. Foley has his flaws but is prob the best option imho. Cooper brilliant but erratic and suspect defence. Good option in the last 20 min when you need to roll the dice.

Foley has been average the past few games but when on song he controls the backline well.

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[Viking]

I still maintain the wallabies biggest issue is lack of direction during attack phase. Foley as playmaker is seriously lacking at test level if we want to be challenging world top 3 ranking. Closely followed by an inexperienced and still unbalanced forward pack not performing consistently.

Here's my view (again) of notable incidents involving the wallabies "playmaker" Bernard Foley.

The following points are played against a rugby minnow, world rank 15th Italy....

1st min Foley Knocks on.
1st min Foley and Folou give away offside penalty.
3rd min Foley throws non pressured pass way too high ending in a knock on.
4th min Poor unpressured exit kick.
6th min Foley falls for a dummy pass leading too Italy potential try(disallowed).
6th min Another poor touch finder foley kick.
15th min Great touch finder off penalty
16th min Good Foley inside short ball for line break assist.
18th min Foley converts from sideline
28th min Foley knocks on again.
34th min Foley doesn't trust hunt beside him and makes the wrong judgment call tackling the wrong guy, allowing a clear linebreak for a try between himself and Genia.

Half time..so far zero playmaking involvement in tries so far for foley. Hunt doing a better playmaker job!
42nd min Foley 10metres out steps and Beats 1 and nearly scores.
44th min foley involved in freakish flick pass leading to Aus try.
56th min supports Genias linebreak well, but pass way over his head
60th min Foley knocks on cold 5m out in front of posts...AGAIN
76th min foley slips thru 3 players for a 7m try
79th min.foley finally directly involved in setting up a team try...beats and sucked in 3players to allow a 50 sprint race try.

I'll keep it simple...I've said it before..if that was Quade Coopers rap sheet...he'd never play again...yet still despite showing a solid at super rugby level at best form...he's continually chosen as the Wallabies playmaker. Truely boggles my mind. A simple addition of a real playmaker like Hunt at centre has transformed our backline 3fold. Our wingers are scoring and Folou is FAAAR more involved once again. Yet Foley is rarely involved in our tries.
Last week vs Scotland..Foleys only try involvement was a cross kick to a FREAKish Folou catch n score. Say no more.



Anyway.I say let Quade play.or start blooding young new talent if your that scared of the publics opinion to let Cooper start..even against a team we should be flogging like struggling Italy. IMHO

It took Foley 3 years to try a cross feild kick to Folau.

Although his inside ball on the 16th min was a beauty, very well-timed, he held off just long enough - so he's finally developed an inside ball game, something that Cooper has been doing from day 1 of his career.

He's also a great runner of the ball, and still a great support player.

But a play-maker he is not. Poor passing, poor vision. poor back-line management.

Don't even get me started on his kicking. Is he the worst kicking flyhalf at international level, or even super xv level?

It's alright tho, it's not like kicking and playmaking are the basics of the position. Next we'll have a halfback who can't pass..... oh wait.