2016 Under-20 Rugby World Championships - Manchester UK

[Hugh Jarse]

Rebels were just as hot favourites against the ponys

Sez who?

Trial between Rebels and Ponies in Wagga Wagga was quite close IIRC.

FTFY ??

No teenagers at home @Seymour B?
Fixed That For You

I have heard of the tie break of Team A beat Team B being used previously.
NSW JRU state champs tie break used to "who scored the first try".
Sometimes it is most tries, sometimes points difference, sometimes it is who beat who, sometimes rules are invented on the spot, particularly when the son of one of the administrators may be playing for one of the teams in the tie break.

 

[Seymour Butz]

Sez who?

Trial between Rebels and Ponies in Wagga Wagga was quite close IIRC.

No teenagers at home @Seymour B?
Fixed That For You

I have heard of the tie break of Team A beat Team B being used previously.
NSW JRU state champs tie break used to "who scored the first try".
Sometimes it is most tries, sometimes points difference, sometimes it is who beat who, sometimes rules are invented on the spot, particularly when the son of one of the administrators may be playing for one of the teams in the tie break.

If the result of the leadership table is overturned, then I'd like to see where that rule is written down. Otherwise, I have to say I'm bitterly disappointed in this process, on behalf of the boys involved.

If the leadership table is all drawn - sure, implement another factor to separate 2 equal teams. But the leadership table isn't drawn. Plain and simple.

I'm assuming your comment about bias is a joke HJ... If not, then seems the sort of diatribes against Rugby Headquarters coming from The Eastwood club president might be warranted.

 

[Silverado]

Sez who?

Trial between Rebels and Ponies in Wagga Wagga was quite close IIRC.

Sez previous results. Brumbies comprehensively beaten by Reds and NSW. Rebels go down by 7 to Reds and give NSW a touch up. Trials are one thing but today's game was a huge turn around



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[Bismarck]

Agree with all of the above, like to know where the so called rule is but remember it is all about selection for Aus Under 20s. Perhaps they should cancel next week's final just in case someone gets hurt

 

[Seymour Butz]

Sez who?

Trial between Rebels and Ponies in Wagga Wagga was quite close IIRC.

No teenagers at home @Seymour B?
Fixed That For You

I have heard of the tie break of Team A beat Team B being used previously.
NSW JRU state champs tie break used to "who scored the first try".
Sometimes it is most tries, sometimes points difference, sometimes it is who beat who, sometimes rules are invented on the spot, particularly when the son of one of the administrators may be playing for one of the teams in the tie break.

But there's no tie to be broken. NSW are ahead on the table.

Why implement a tie break? That's why they have fors and againsts included - to add another factor to separate the teams. If all locked up, sure. Bit not if the leader table has teams separated by the factors on the table - wins, losses, bonus points and fors and againsts.

Not impressed. Very lacking in transparency.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

No Joke. @Seymour B. Seen it happen at more than one gale day. Never underestimate the lengths that some parents will go to to try and get their offspring a trinket.

Some of Papworth's rant is warranted, some of it is cuckoo land. Some of Rugby Central is total BS, much of it is not. Truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Seymour Butz]

No Joke. @Seymour B. Seen it happen at more than one gale day. Never underestimate the lengths that some parents will go to to try and get their offspring a trinket.

Some of Papworth's rant is warranted, some of it is cuckoo land. Some of Rugby Central is total BS, much of it is not. Truth is somewhere in the middle.

So. Just to be clear HJ. Do you think this decision is fair - that the third ranked team - based on the publicly published leaderboard - should advance to the final?

Or is it just the ARU wanting to encourage the southerners with a finals berth?

 

[Silverado]

Sez who?

Trial between Rebels and Ponies in Wagga Wagga was quite close.

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[Hugh Jarse]

But there's no tie to be broken. NSW are ahead on the table.

Why implement a tie break? That's why they have fors and againsts included - to add another factor to separate the teams. If all locked up, sure. Bit not if the leader table has teams separated by the factors on the table - wins, losses, bonus points and fors and againsts.

Not impressed. Very lacking in transparency.

Maybe rules were published describing this situation (not on the their web page!) and maybe NSW Team management didn't pass details of those rules on to their players and associates.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

So. Just to be clear HJ. Do you think this decision is fair - that the third ranked team - based on the publicly published leaderboard - should advance to the final?

Or is it just the ARU wanting to encourage the southerners with a finals berth?

I have given up expecting to see fairness and logic in team selections, at state, school association or National representation level. Just like I expect referees to make mistakes. They are human just like the players.

I reiterate that NSW should have played better throughout the tournament, and this situation would have been avoided.

 

[Bismarck]

This is from Super Rugby
3.5.1
Tie breaking rules
In the event of two or more teams being equal on competition points for any position on either the Conference or Super Rugby Standings tables, either during or at the end of the season, such position will be decided upon using the following steps until the tie is broken:
(a) Most wins from all matches;
(b) Highest aggregate points difference from all matches;
(c) Most tries from all matches;
(d) Highest aggregate difference of total tries for versus tries scored against from all matches;
(e) Coin toss.
I would have been happier with a coin toss!
Not sure what rules Under 20s follow

 

[Linespeed]

This is from p14 of the 2015 U20 Champ Manual :
View attachment 7606

http://www.rugby.com.au/Portals/18/...015 National Under 20 Championship Manual.pdf

 

[Seymour Butz]

This is from Super Rugby
3.5.1
Tie breaking rules
In the event of two or more teams being equal on competition points for any position on either the Conference or Super Rugby Standings tables, either during or at the end of the season, such position will be decided upon using the following steps until the tie is broken:
(a) Most wins from all matches;
(b) Highest aggregate points difference from all matches;
(c) Most tries from all matches;
(d) Highest aggregate difference of total tries for versus tries scored against from all matches;
(e) Coin toss.
I would have been happier with a coin toss!
Not sure what rules Under 20s follow

Thanks Bismark. Clear as crystal. Based on a) being equal, then b) separates them. Based on the Super 20 rules, it should be NSW v QLD based on these criteria. Exactly as I have seen many times in the past.

Huw Jarse - who can we ask at the U20's management to clarify what rules they are following? There needs to be transparency here, not sycophantic favouritism.

 

[kiap]

This is from p14 of the 2015 U20 Champ Manual :
View attachment 7606

http://www.rugby.com.au/Portals/18/Files/Playing/2015 National U20 Championship/2015 National Under 20 Championship Manual.pdf

OK (dated 11 February 2015)

At the conclusion of the Round Robin Series, the teams are to be ranked one through three based on their cumulative Match points, and identified respectively as winner, runner up & third. If, at the completion of the Round Robin Series, two Teams are level on match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:​

​

i. The winner of the match when the two teams met during the championship​

ii. The team who scored the most tries throughout the championship​

iii. The team with the most points differential​

iv. If these criteria cannot separate the team’s joint winners shall be declared​

​

 

[Silverado]

OK (dated 11 February 2015)

At the conclusion of the Round Robin Series, the teams are to be ranked one through three based on their cumulative Match points, and identified respectively as winner, runner up & third. If, at the completion of the Round Robin Series, two Teams are level on match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:​

​

i. The winner of the match when the two teams met during the championship​

ii. The team who scored the most tries throughout the championship​

iii. The team with the most points differential​

iv. If these criteria cannot separate the team’s joint winners shall be declared​

​

Thanks for that clarification. Dud rule but rules are rules. Good luck Rebels


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[Hugh Jarse]

The rules from 2015 U20 Championships may apply.

Rule 5.5 states
If, at the completion of the Round Robin Series, two Teams are level on match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:
i. The winner of the match when the two teams met during the championship
ii. The team who scored the most tries throughout the championship
iii. The team with the most points differential
iv. If these criteria cannot separate the team’s joint winners shall be declared

In the event of more than two teams being equal on competition points at the conclusion of the championship the following protocols in order will apply:
i. The team who scored the most tries throughout the championship
ii. The team with the most points differential
iii. If these criteria cannot separate the team’s joint winners shall be declared

 

[Bismarck]

Damn rule 5.5.(i) - I prefer the next set of rules where points differentials are used!

Although this is for 2015 and it was played over a week......

Given the comp is now over 6 weeks, perhaps should be more in line with a conventional competition i.e. like in Super Rugby and probably Club Rugby?

But good luck to Rebels and Qld.

 

[Silverado]

The rules from 2015 U20 Championships may apply.

Rule 5.5 states
If, at the completion of the Round Robin Series, two Teams are level on match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:
i. The winner of the match when the two teams met during the championship
ii. The team who scored the most tries throughout the championship
iii. The team with the most points differential
iv. If these criteria cannot separate the team’s joint winners shall be declared

In the event of more than two teams being equal on competition points at the conclusion of the championship the following protocols in order will apply:
i. The team who scored the most tries throughout the championship
ii. The team with the most points differential
iii. If these criteria cannot separate the team’s joint winners shall be declared

But we now have a group of five with the championship decided by a final, so does that criteria hold?


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[kiap]

Seem to recall the same rules in place for the 2014 Pacific Rugby Cup.

Queensland A got through to the final at TG Millner against the Argentina Pampas XV, even though Fiji A had the better for-against.

I actually don't mind that tie-breaker. For and against can be influenced by the weather etc, (how heavy the respective tracks are, etc.)

Whereas the head-to-head result is exactly that - one team BEATS the other directly.

 

[Bismarck]

i like the way you think Silverado - unless of course there is an updated 2016 manual........the plot thickens. Maybe ask the Rebels if they have a copy