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Australia v Argentina, Sept 14th in Perth

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barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
The best 3 is leaving the country because his skills were not appreciated at Super Rugby level. With the new laws that is likely to change.

That's absolute rubbish. For some reason Dan Palmer has acquired a mythical status on here- a master scrummager who has been needlessly spurned for the past few years and now we are suffering for it.

The truth is he is a good scrummager, one of the better ones in the country. But is he the best? The Brumbies scrum was good this year, but never dominated either the Waratahs or Reds scrums while Palmer was on the field.

He ended up being dropped by Jake White and Laurie Fisher. Two blokes who you can hardly accuse of ignoring the set piece at the selection table.

He then took a contract in France, not because he was continually overlooked (because he wasn't), but for personal reasons and financial reasons.
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christawph

Frank Row (1)
Vinny Munro was the TMO, and he is a very experienced international referee. He said that there was "no clear and obvious" reason not to allow the try to be awarded. That should be good enough for us.


Why do you think that you are better qualified to make the call? (By the way, the TMO has access to all camera angles, and the viewer does not, unless the broadcaster elects to show them all). Plus, he is actually there, and watched the incident in real time.


The tv view is often misleading, apart from anything else, it is in two dimensions, and the reality can be distorted by the camera angle.

What does supposed 'qualification' have to do with anything? The people watching TV were shown the obstruction from a number of different angles, Lealiifano clearly had his inside line blocked by the decoy runner, he had no chance for a direct tackle and had to run around the obstructor and try and grab him (as evident by his outstretched arms). I've played union for 15+ years, i think that makes me more than 'qualified' to comment on the refs making bad calls, which is rampant in international rugby.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Wasn't he dropped for Sio @ 1 and Alexander @ 3 for the finals?

No, Palmer didn't play again after the Crusaders match due to injury........

I would've loved to have seen the Sio/Moore/Palmer frontrow combination develop........
 

Sparky

Frank Nicholson (4)
A win is a win so we should take it. White had a good kicking game in the first half but he did have a wind behind him. A really shit kicking game in the second half tho, at one stage it was the 60th min we have had 20% of the ball and he does a shit little left footed kick which went no where and gave the ball back to them.

Out forwards are seriously shot, our scrum is shot, our break down is shot. We are not getting quick ball for our backs. Bring back robbo on the bench and he can be slipper sub, because when he went of last night the scrum got worse. Mowen needs to play 6 because he is very uncoordinated trying to get the ball out of our scrum.

Our backs are standing to flat with no depth but its hard to really rate the backs because they are getting slow ball from general play and set pieces.

Watching the nz box game, they are a level or 2 above us. Our forwards really need to improve.
 

Pusser

Larry Dwyer (12)
Wasn't he dropped for Sio @ 1 and Alexander @ 3 for the finals?
He had a recurring foot injury (stress fracture I think) and had an operation. At the last home game he did say he would be returning to Aus after his French stint.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
The best 3 is leaving the country because his skills were not appreciated at Super Rugby level. With the new laws that is likely to change.


To summarise what has been posted and add some bits:
  • Palmer struggled for most of the year with his foot injury and finally had surgery. That's why he didn't get selected for the Brumbies.
  • He has been the best scrummaging THP in Australia since before he left the Waratahs. As a Waratahs fan I was ropeable when he went to the Brumbies and I wanted him back as soon as his contract was up.
  • He has been consistently overlooked at test level because he is supposedly a "pot plant" around the field. Because he can't get a top-up from the ARU, he can't get what he's worth here and is going to the French comp where they understand how important the THP position is and pay accordingly.
  • In Australia, scrummaging is about the fourth or fifth requirement on a THP's CV. Anywhere else its the number one requirement. You reap what you sow and we are reaping it big-time!
What I would have given to have had Palmer at THP for the Lions and the RC. He may not have gone that well with Simmons behind him but he is an order of magnitude better than Kepu and Alexander. Our scrum has been an absolute disgrace and I have several times wondered if someone was going to get a spinal injury packing as they were.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression the Brumbies favoured Alexander due to his workrate.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
To summarise what has been posted and add some bits:
  • Palmer struggled for most of the year with his foot injury and finally had surgery. That's why he didn't get selected for the Brumbies.
  • He has been the best scrummaging THP in Australia since before he left the Waratahs. As a Waratahs fan I was ropeable when he went to the Brumbies and I wanted him back as soon as his contract was up.
  • He has been consistently overlooked at test level because he is supposedly a "pot plant" around the field. Because he can't get a top-up from the ARU, he can't get what he's worth here and is going to the French comp where they understand how important the THP position is and pay accordingly.
  • In Australia, scrummaging is about the fourth or fifth requirement on a THP's CV. Anywhere else its the number one requirement. You reap what you sow and we are reaping it big-time!
What I would have given to have had Palmer at THP for the Lions and the RC. He may not have gone that well with Simmons behind him but he is an order of magnitude better than Kepu and Alexander. Our scrum has been an absolute disgrace and I have several times wondered if someone was going to get a spinal injury packing as they were.

And we'll continue to reap it big time until there is a change in the midset about prop forwards.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
What does supposed 'qualification' have to do with anything? The people watching TV were shown the obstruction from a number of different angles, Lealiifano clearly had his inside line blocked by the decoy runner, he had no chance for a direct tackle and had to run around the obstructor and try and grab him (as evident by his outstretched arms). I've played union for 15+ years, i think that makes me more than 'qualified' to comment on the refs making bad calls, which is rampant in international rugby.


The player wasn't a decoy runner, he was originally the ball carrier and that is why this was correctly awarded a try.

Once a player passes the ball, they don't have to disappear. He didn't change his line and the fact that he was between the new ball carrier and Leali'ifano is not illegal. Contepomi was close to stepping behind the player but didn't quite. He never crossed so he was in a straight line behind his own player so that is not an obstruction.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
To summarise what has been posted and add some bits:
  • Palmer struggled for most of the year with his foot injury and finally had surgery. That's why he didn't get selected for the Brumbies.
  • He has been the best scrummaging THP in Australia since before he left the Waratahs. As a Waratahs fan I was ropeable when he went to the Brumbies and I wanted him back as soon as his contract was up.
  • He has been consistently overlooked at test level because he is supposedly a "pot plant" around the field. Because he can't get a top-up from the ARU, he can't get what he's worth here and is going to the French comp where they understand how important the THP position is and pay accordingly.
  • In Australia, scrummaging is about the fourth or fifth requirement on a THP's CV. Anywhere else its the number one requirement. You reap what you sow and we are reaping it big-time!
What I would have given to have had Palmer at THP for the Lions and the RC. He may not have gone that well with Simmons behind him but he is an order of magnitude better than Kepu and Alexander. Our scrum has been an absolute disgrace and I have several times wondered if someone was going to get a spinal injury packing as they were.

I agree with pretty much all of this but I feel that it isn't complete without noting that in the season where he was destined to be heavily involved in the Wallaby setup, he got injured in the first test of the season and didn't play again.

I really didn't think he was an obvious Wallaby selection in 2011 particularly when we had a reasonably established team trying to prepare for the RWC.
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
If he does, we will lose by 100+




On what possible basis is this formed?



His throwing is certainly no worse than Moore's.

He's smaller, which would actually suit this set of scrum laws as he's more able to get his leg up, which would let our scrum pack a bit lower and avoid being driven upwards.

His breakdown work and tackling would actually be a very intelligent thing to bring in v the Boks. We gave away far too many easy metres v the Boks last week, because everyone went too high and the boks just owned the collision and drove us back before hitting the deck. Having someone chop out The bok backrowers ankles 2m before they get to the advantage line would be pretty fucking useful for us right now, as they hit the deck straight away and don't carry on another 5 metres.

Starting Fainga'a next weekend is exactly what I would do, and let Moore have a break. If it all falls apart (and as a world cup winning captain, I doubt he'll crumble) we have Moore on the bench, getting a bit of a rest AND a kick up the arse.

The hatred and derision Saia gets on this forum is fucking disgraceful.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
The irony.


Thank you for that extremely insightful comment.

Brumbieman I agree with all of what you're saying but the real question is how much we sacrifice in terms of POWER at scrum time... But I do think Moore needs a rest. I'm just worried putting Saia there may completely fuck us over in terms of holding our own....
 

light

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Not a big fan of Saia but I think it is about time we give Moore a break.

As for this game: I thought Fardy was by far our best; White, Hooper, Folau, Lilo had very good games; Mowen, Cooper, Cummins and Slipper were solid without being spectacular. It was an average game for the rest.

Special mention also to JOC (James O'Connor) who got absolutely monstered in a huge tackle.

Return leg in ArgieLand with a huge, noisy, and passionate crowd will be a cracker.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
So a better display from the forwards this week, at least in the loose. The weather made it very hard for the backs to capitalise, but it was good to see some more urgency from the pigs. They still don't realign fast enough or come around the corner with enough pace and intensity. A major reason they don't make consistent metres in tight is that they catch the ball stationary instead of hitting it with momentum.

Scrum was again atrocious. I thought we were lucky not to get a YC -- probably only the variety of ways in which we fucked the dog prevented one being handed out. Having said that, I reckon Alexander was a scrum away and bringing on Kepu was smart for that reason if nothing else. I feel like a broken record, but I really think we need to see Robbo-Moore-Slipper, preferably with Horwill and Timani behind them.

Speaking of Timani, he was surprisingly good -- having watched him at the Tahs for years, I've found him incredibly frustrating so this isn't a comment out of state loyalty. He put in some big hits and carried the ball well. 5 tackles in 29 minutes suggests a solid work rate too.

Fardy = great.

Cooper was solid. Good to see him tackling hard and low, and hitting a few rucks too. IMO, it's still very hard to pick between him and To'omua.

Good to see Folau kicking the ball. He must have put in 3 or 4 kicks, including a not-too-bad attacking punt. I guess someone's told him that Cheika's not in charge just now.

Finally -- I'm just stoked to have the win.
 
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Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
Ok, so i'm watching the match again, sober and properly concentrating to get an impartial view.

12mins in, Nic White's kicking has been fantastic. Had one out on the full off the crumbling scrum, but 2m to the right and he'd have peeled off 30m with it. Had one land on the Argie wingers chest, but he's just cleared from on the 22 and given us a lineout on their 10m line, plus the box kick in the first minute that made 50m.

Douglas has been surprisingly better than I though, but someone needs to make Simmons wear a headgear different to Fardy. Maybe he's trying to steal some credit from Fardy?

Lealiifano's been very classy too, put the grubber through for Cummins to chase and then nailed the 3 points in a hell of a gale.

Moore buggers the throw. Also, what is it with our kick receipt? They all seem to be bouncing, who the hell is calling for them!?

Mowen really needs to move to 6, his control of the ball at 8 under a shitty scrum is really poor. Something is going on between White and Mowen there and they need to fix it.

14mins, box kick from White, and it's a pearler, lands EXACTLY where it needs to and Cummins puts the receiver under huge pressure. Excellent take from the Argie.

Argies go wide, Lealiifano nails Hernandez who spills the ball, we win a penalty from the ensuing scrum lottery and Lealiifano pots another 3. He's so far been instrumental in all our points.

Kick off from Argies at 17:20, Rob Simmons butchers it. Cummins called, Simmons got in the way and then didn't even make an attempt to catch. White peels off 25m from the box kick.

18:40, White takes the kick for touch, 5m inside our half and we get a lineout on their 22.

Awesome maul from lineout, makes 15 metres with Hooper at the back. Next phase, Simmons takes a pick and drive and goes backwards 5m.

Cooper grubbers through really nicely, Lealiifano makes the hit on the receiver.

19:00 we're playing a forward pattern to the right, but everyone is getting caught flat footed. White doing his best to put the ball in front, but each ball runner is starting static, not getting a bit deeper so they can really charge onto the ball at speed, it's making it really hard for White to judge his passes.

Ball turned over and Argies kick upfield. Commentators get immediate erections when it lands near Folau, and seem to expect him to just win the RC by touching the ball. Puts in a good tactical kick though.

REturn is fielded by Beiber who offloads in the tackle and puts Cooper under huge pressure. Argie offside in the kick, penalty to Aus. White takes the kick for touch from halfway, gives us a lineout 10m out.

Pick and driving after the lineout, everyone bar Fardy seems to just die at the point of contact. They take the hit and go to ground, but Fardy someone seems to make3-4 metre on each pick and drive, he takes the hit, somehow shrugs it off and then drive forward another few metres before he's taken down. It's something we badly need as othewise out pick and drives are just not effective.

Building great pressure and 5m infron the Argie goalposts until Simmons gives away a howler of a penalty by coming in from the side.


24:00 Cooper takes a great option from the back with a pinpoint chip over the Argie line for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to chase. Good Argie counter-attack and White makes an excellent covering tackle. Bit of a scramble, Lealiifano makes a great hit and puts Contepomi under pressure and he has a brain fart, Fardy dives on the loose ball, and White peels off another 40m from the base of the ruck.

25:00 Not straight from Argentina, Wallabies take the lineout instead of the scrum. Fardy great take at the back, Lealiifano drives over the adv line first hit up. Cooper spins it wide to Folau who makes great metres in contact, White arrives in a flash and puts it 2m in front of Douglas' chest so he sprints onto it to catch it, Hey presto, Douglas wins the collision and gets over the advantage line.

27:00 White scoots a couple of steps and draws the defence, and puts it on Lealiifano's chest at full speed and he charges straight into the hole created by White, making great metres. Fardy cleans out, White-Cooper-Beiber and then Folau is in.

5minute passage of excellent play.

We fuck the restart AGAIN, Puma's go wide and Cooper makes a great hit mid-field. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Fardy team up to win a penalty at the breakdown. White peels off 35m from the kick.

Moore's 2nd crooked throw of the night. We give the Argies hell in the scrum.

Cooper is having a good game, being really physical in defence, and cleaning up some really shit ball.

33:05 - White done for a crooked feed.

Fardy's breakdown work is immense, he's so slippery in the ruck he just seems to wriggle through and be a massive pain in the arse to get rid of. Workrate and aggression really good too. White kicks out on the full from the ruck (by about 8cm).

35:12 Argies driving forward relentlessly, Fardy somehow rips out the ball in a tackle, after stealing Ruchie's cloak. How he got away without even a penalty i'll never know. Folau clears 40 metres.

Why everyone is bagging us in this game, i've no idea. I can't (kick receit and scrum aside) really find much fault with the first half at all. We're about 5% off being at NZ or Bok level, IMO. Some more accuracy at the cleanout, and a bit more teamwork when picking and driving and We'd be a completely different team.

As I write this, White takes a free kick and boots it 60m downfield, fields the return and puts up a spot-perfect bomb for Hooper to chase who hits the receiver about half a second after he gets it, and the Argie subsequently spills it under pressure.

Fark, 37:35 White puts up another excellent bomb that swirls around in the wind and lands 45 downfield, and is spilled by the Argie and Cummins scores a crowd-try. White and Moore try a set move around the front of the lineout, but butcher it.

Off a maul, Cooper takes it to the line and is brought down, clear out made by Cummins and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). Alexander coems round the corner and shows why props are not supposed to be taking the fucking ball on attack. Blows a 3 on 2 overlap of Lealiifano, Folau and Beiber. should have given it immediately to Lealiifano and looped around to either hit the ruck, or provide and offload option. Try gone begging there, our first real fuck up of the half.
Actually, on the replay it shows Lealiifano slip before he gets it and the pass goes straight through where his hands would've been. I apologise to Benny A.

Scrum holds well, and the Argie 9 is done for offside. Lealiifano pots another 3.

End of the half. Aside from the bombed try, we've played pretty damn well IMO. The Argies were wel up for this game, and seeing what they did to the Boks in Argentina and then New Zealand, I think it's a pretty good result so far. We REALLY need to work on our kick off receipts and have SOMEONE CALL THE FUCKING HIGH BALL when it comes our way, and obviously the scrum, but it's been pretty good so far. A little more accuracy and cohesion at the breakdown and we'd be looking a hell of a lot better.
 

christawph

Frank Row (1)
The player wasn't a decoy runner, he was originally the ball carrier and that is why this was correctly awarded a try.

Once a player passes the ball, they don't have to disappear. He didn't change his line and the fact that he was between the new ball carrier and Leali'ifano is not illegal. Contepomi was close to stepping behind the player but didn't quite. He never crossed so he was in a straight line behind his own player so that is not an obstruction.

My mistake, he was a ball runner. When he passed the ball he was barely jogging and could have easily stopped, but he conveniently took some extra steps before stopping right between two of our defenders, he should have held his line and moved past if he wanted to keep running... When play is that close to the line all it takes is a slight obstruction to open up for a try. Maybe not illegal, but certainly preventing Lealiifano from tackling with his left shoulder
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
2nd half:

Takes 24 seconds for White to put in a great little grubber and gain 15m. Bearing in mind we're running into a howling gale, grubbers are the way to go here.

Excellent take of a high ball from Beiber, sliding along his back.

42:mins, Simmons gets penalised for tackling the jumper in the air, the fucking idiot. Next lineout the Argies maul forward and is eventually sacked by Alexander who intelligently gets onto the ball and doesn't roll away when it goes down, as it's a maul.

The scrums begin: 45mins.

Slipper gets done, and Argies go for the corner. Sio on for Slipper.

Argie maul is sacked by Mowen, through the middle, who latches onto the ball and takes it down. New scrum. Wallabies go early in the engagement.
Next scrum, Argie loosehead drive straight through Alexander and Moore. Reset collapses. Next one, we make a solid hit and stay tight, Hold the pressure and then wheel like, like NZ do to us. Hooper makes his tackle and Beiber hits the ruck.
Forwards start to flood the breakdown and smash every pick and drive, and eventually we win the penalty.

That was EXCELLENTLY handled, IMO. We conceded no points, defended really aggressively, and the scrum held together reasonably well, bar one.
White takes the kick and shoves it 35m upfield into the gale.

50:00 - Douglas off, Timani. Thought Douglas had a good game, actually. Simmons is the one who's been shit, Douglas I thought has tackled well, carried well and had a pretty good workrate.

White wins another kicking battle against Hernandez.
Timani takes a hit up. A little bit of a lumbering tank style hit up, but has similar momentum and makes a few metres. Ball spits out the back and White rushes a kick over the top which goes sideways.

Cummins takes a great take, hits Folau in midfield who charges forward and makes about 15m. White with a bullt from the deck, 2m in front of Timani to get the sasquatch moving, and he takes the pass at full speed and crunches some poor bastard. Hooper and Cooper clean out, Cooper not very accurately and goes off his feet leaving the ball exposed, which the Pumas get their hands on before White does. (@52:30)

Simmons attempts to take a high ball and butchers it, then flails about like a newborn deer trying to recover it and knocks it on. He's been the standout worst player on the park.

53:20 the scrum is just monstered backwards. We hold together, but it's just driven backwards about 10m and Alexander eventually pops out the top of it, penalty to Pumas.

55:15 - Timani makes a big hit centre field. Comes out of the oien and smashes the ball receiver. We need THIS v NZ and the Boks, not passive defense where we just let them come to us.
And (like i've been saying for 4 years), the big hit inspires the other players as Cummins then does the same thing and hammers the Puma winger. We win a turnover from the hit, White's box kick is charged down but he reacts instantly and recovers posession, then stays on his feet in the tackle for long enough and allows support to get back and secure the ball, in the form of Cummins, Moore and Folau. Fardy gets done off the pick and drive for supporting his weight with his hands, not legs.

58:32 - Scrum, very solid from Wallabies. Couple of phases later, Timani makes another great hit in tight that stops, then drives backwards, the Puma picking and driving. Few more phases, Lealiifano and Mowen team up for a great hit and force a knock on.

59:39, Kepu waddles onto the field to replace Alexander. White gets penalised for a crooked feed, but first scrum up and Kepu gets bent in half. Sanchez takes points @ 60:45.
62:45 - 22 drop out from Cooper. Puma's work thir way upfield until a halfbreak and overlap put them 5m out. Kepu's technique is still shit, he grabs his man, swings around the otherside and then tries to pull them over. USE YOUR FUCKING SHOULDERS YOU LAZY fluffybunny, HIT THEM!!!!
Contepomi uses a nice little play to take Lealiifano out of the defensive line and create the try.
14-13.
To'omua, Fainga'a on, 65:00.
First throw is dead straight but read by the Puma pack and turned over. To'omua's 2nd touch is to make 35m with a low angle half grubber into the corner. Berrick Barnes, take note!
Folau kicks into teh corner, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) charges down and we flood the breakdown. Puma's retain posession. Timani's workrate isn't fantastic, but what he's doing is making every input count. Each tackle is a big hit, each run he's making metres, and his cleanouts are good.
Fainga'a makes a grass cutter, Fardy takes advantage of it an wins a penalty. Sharpie pipes up and highlights exactly that point, and one i've been making for 4 years on here. Lealiifano's kick is blown wide of the posts.
Argies start doing their best to pin Australia in their half, but up against it with White, To'omua out there. Folau takes the mark and puts it ou just inside Puma territory.
71:30 Kepu and Mowen make a tackle and drive their man back, Fainga'a flies into the ruck and we win a penalty. White kicks in 35m into the gale, and Fardy is replaced by McCalman. We work our way across field with some good pick and drives, and backline hit ups, until Kepu has a go and loses it. Manages to fling it backwards for White to clean up. Gives it to Lealiifano who steps the first defender, takes it forward and passes in the tackle to Mowen, who drives forward a few metres and goes down, and the first man into the ruck is Lealiifano, having been tackled less than3 seconds before. That is the hunger and desperation I want to see from our players.
To'omua makes the worlds worst drop goal attempt, and the Puma's take the 22 drop out. To'omua fields it, puts it up for Beiber to chase, and we're back into Puma territory with 5 to go.
Puma knock on.
In atrocious conditions, the handling has been remarkably good, only 8/7 Aus/Arg.
Scrum: Kepu gets his head shoved up his arse again, preventing Fainga'a from striking. We finally have a rock solid scrum, and we win a penalty off a breakdown and Lealiifano has a shot. Misses.
Puma's bottle it at the death and throw it crookedly.
Game ends.
I thought we played really well in the 2nd half. Our kicking was good, our defence really solid as well.
Like the first half, some more accuracy at the cleanout and cohesion in our forward play and we'll suddenly have the platform to launch the backs from. I can see big improvements in this game from the last two.
Fardy, White and Lealiifano were all fantastic, Simmons was about the only player who I thought wasn't worth the jersey. Even Kepu didn't stink the place up too much.
Good captaincy from Mowen too, I thought we took the right options at all the right times.

Edit: His interview at the end of the game as well was really eloquent and intelligent, he really pointed out what was going on and didn't just waffle on al la Genia.
 
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