Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Why don't they just bring Douglas back? Or have they released him already?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Embarrassingly, its in the Dwyer piece I read about 1 hour ago.
ChargerWA
Mark Loane (55)
Dargaville?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Not seeing too many wraps for his performance last week in NRC.
I gather from lack of mention that Cam Crawford - who was ahead of him for selection on EOYT 2013 - did nothing worthy of mention in his NRC game.
We are fucked and far from home.
Should still beat the Saffers, I think.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
He hasn't been released. That's why he's stuck playing in the NRC instead of starting his Leinster gig.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Retallick and Whitelock aren't superior due to a couple of big collisions each game. They are better because they do that, and rack up stats similar to Carter and Simmons, all whilst doing things like managing to make tackles and get to their feet for a pilfer, not at any point sacrificing the line out.
Kane Douglas doesn't solve this problem. He merely shifts it to another aspect of play.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Nah Parker from Brisbane City has better hair.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
OK - he's in the squad as far as I'm concerned. He actually played pretty well without snorkel and goggles on Saturday - definitely a cut above NRC level.
I got the impression from Dwyers piece that the decision to release is recent and it may be from a date yet to arrive?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
No one solves any problem on their own.
I start from the proposition that he's a better player than either Carter or Simmons showed on Saturday, and Carter was poor for different reasons the week before.
Whether that puts him ahead of Whitelock or Retallick is not yet the point: we just need to pick our best team and work with that.
For mine Douglas ahead of Carter is a no-brainer.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
But that's my point. Douglas isn't just clear cut better than Carter and Simmons. He is better is some aspects. But he is also inferior in some aspects.
He doesn't do as much work and his line out work is not as good. He's not a big ball runner, so all you've got left is the odd hit and hard clean out. They're great but if it means we turn over a couple of extra rucks, or leave a hole in the defensive line a couple of times, what have we gained.
I wasn't attempting to compare him to the NZ combo. I was just saying they are so good because they do all the good individual involvements that Kane offers, but they also do all the high work rate involvements that Carter and Simmons offer.
So once again, as I said, Kane doesn't solve the problem of our best locking combo, because it just means what we gain in grunt, we lose in work rate. As per my previous statement of "shifting the problem".
He doesn't do as much work and his line out work is not as good. He's not a big ball runner, so all you've got left is the odd hit and hard clean out. They're great but if it means we turn over a couple of extra rucks, or leave a hole in the defensive line a couple of times, what have we gained.
I wasn't attempting to compare him to the NZ combo. I was just saying they are so good because they do all the good individual involvements that Kane offers, but they also do all the high work rate involvements that Carter and Simmons offer.
So once again, as I said, Kane doesn't solve the problem of our best locking combo, because it just means what we gain in grunt, we lose in work rate. As per my previous statement of "shifting the problem".
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
We'll never know.
I'll back grunt: to take Carter, his work rate doesn't help much when he loses the ball in contact - maybe we'd be better if he did less work!
They're getting through huge amounts more work than our guys as well.
The argument that Simmons and Carter are doing their job because they're making our scrum and lineout decent is only just halfway there.
Retallick and Whitelock got through 19 tackles between them. Carter and Simmons made 10.
If you add in the 6s, the All Black trio made 26 tackles with 3 misses to our guys making 14 tackles with 3 misses. In a game where both sides made very close to the same number of tackles, we need a better workrate out of these tight forwards.
Meanwhile, people are complaining that Palu was anonymous yet he had our highest tackle count. We need our 4, 5, and 6 making a lot more tackles so players like Palu can do the job that we need them to do which is run the ball over the advantage line.
Our 4, 5, and 6 also gave away 6 penalties and a yellow card between them. They weren't just passengers around the field, they made costly errors which gave up field position and points.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
I'm not saying they did their job. They were well shown up as a combination on Saturday night. You surely have to look at their work rate as an anomaly though. Why?
Because these players top the stats for their teams almost every week.
I'm just arguing that there is no magic solution out there. Was Douglas vastly superior to Carter in Super Rugby? I'd argue no. He played well in a team that performed well as a whole. Just like Carter did. Skelton came on and didn't have a great deal of impact. He has had more impact in contact that Douglas all year, so if a fresh Skelton isn't able to rip through them, why would we expect Douglas to do it for 60-80 minutes.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
While stats never tell the complete story, i accept, this is the telling one to me: virtually twice as many tackles and half the error rate in making them.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
You need to consider where the tackles are made also. But I honestly can't remember details on this. For example I mean if Palu parks himself first off the ruck regularly, of course he is going to make more tackles. He has more traffic coming his way and they are lower risk tackles to make.
Then if Carter covers hard to make a tackle, gets up from the ruck and finds himself stuck out wide making up the defensive line because others have pushed across again and they look to exploit this, of course he is going to have more misses.
I honestly can't remember individual specifics, I'm just saying it's not completely cut and dry with the numbers.
I do dare say that the All Blacks players individually would have had it easier, as when every player does their own role, and stays where they should be, tight forwards tackle in tight, loose forwards tackle looser and backs have to cover backs in space.
Then if Carter covers hard to make a tackle, gets up from the ruck and finds himself stuck out wide making up the defensive line because others have pushed across again and they look to exploit this, of course he is going to have more misses.
I honestly can't remember individual specifics, I'm just saying it's not completely cut and dry with the numbers.
I do dare say that the All Blacks players individually would have had it easier, as when every player does their own role, and stays where they should be, tight forwards tackle in tight, loose forwards tackle looser and backs have to cover backs in space.
I'm not really advocating any great change although I think Horwill will probably get a crack and maybe Skelton will be retained on the bench (which would presumably mean Carter will be dropped).
I don't think we have any great solutions and it's plainly clear that Douglas won't be recalled without several injuries. The four locks that are already in the squad need to improve dramatically because they're the best we've got.
I'm just pointing to an area of our pack where we got significantly outplayed. In my opinion, 4, 5, and 6 was the area where there was the biggest gulf between the two sides.
How did Carter play 80 minutes and make 2 tackles? It's completely dumfounding.
I don't think we have any great solutions and it's plainly clear that Douglas won't be recalled without several injuries. The four locks that are already in the squad need to improve dramatically because they're the best we've got.
I'm just pointing to an area of our pack where we got significantly outplayed. In my opinion, 4, 5, and 6 was the area where there was the biggest gulf between the two sides.
How did Carter play 80 minutes and make 2 tackles? It's completely dumfounding.
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