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Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014

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T

Train Without a Station

Guest
People can say why are we looking at Beale and White when our forwards got shown up.

Our forwards have easily been the best in their positions all year (and mostly last year too), that's why?

The only places we have reason to believe we have better options available is the halves so we may as well look there.
 
KOB1987

KOB1987

Rod McCall (65)
I'm with you BH, wholesale changes don't achieve a lot but the 9/10 from the bench will likely get the nod to start and we need Horwill's experience back..

there will be a forced change at hooker and also one with McCabe by the sounds of it..with the new halves that could result in a back line reshuffle so I will sit on the fence and see what happens in that respect..
 
KOB1987

KOB1987

Rod McCall (65)
Train Without a Station said:
People can say why are we looking at Beale and White when our forwards got shown up.

Our forwards have easily been the best in their positions all year (and mostly last year too), that's why?

The only places we have reason to believe we have better options available is the halves so we may as well look there.
Click to expand...

not really, if Douglas wasn't defecting next year he'd be there and so would Potgeiter if he was an Aussie! conceding the latter is purely academic..
 
Braveheart81

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Train Without a Station said:
People can say why are we looking at Beale and White when our forwards got shown up.

Our forwards have easily been the best in their positions all year (and mostly last year too), that's why?

The only places we have reason to believe we have better options available is the halves so we may as well look there.
Click to expand...

If White hadn't been as poor as he was and Beale defended better, we might have lost by 20-25 points instead.

Those two should probably drop back to the bench because they haven't performed well. I think White has been dire and Beale's defence has been a serious liability. If White's passing had been good it would be interesting to see how much better Beale looked in attack because he was threatening outside Phipps and Foley who were getting players running onto the ball which makes things harder for the defensive line.

Our forwards have been the best players in their positions all season which is the worrying thing. We can't just replace them all because there aren't better players available. If they don't improve significantly though, we will get dusted up in Perth by South Africa regardless of who is picked in the backline.
 
Richo

Richo

John Thornett (49)
That's a good idea. Can we make JacPot an Aussie? I know he's played for the Bokke, but our PM is a rugby fan, surely he could get the boys and girls at Immigration to backdate his citizenship a few years and invalidate those caps.
 
Joe Blow

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
Horwill has been coming into form in the latter part of the season and he offers a lot in the second row. He can run the line out and play either side. Carter really was shown up for his body positioning and he just didn't have the defensive punch that won him a man of the match award against France on debut. The Saffas are the kings of holding up mauls for turnovers and they will be all over him.
I liked the idea of starting Skelton and replacing him when he was slowing up as was done against France. He had a huge impact in that test. We probably will not see it but this would be my side assuming all are fit.

Slipper
TPN
Kepu
Horwill
Skelton
Fardy
Hooper
Higgers
Phipps
Foley
Horne
To'omua
Kuridrani
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
Folau

Sio/Robinson
Alexander
Hansen
Simmons
Palu
White
Beale
Betham/Tomane
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
KOB1987 said:
not really, if Douglas wasn't defecting next year he'd be there and so would Potgeiter if he was an Aussie! conceding the latter is purely academic..
Click to expand...


Douglas might be in the squad if he wasn't leaving. Debatable.

Even when Horwill was struggling last year, Deans still opted for him over Douglas. In fact he opted for Timani over Douglas.

Douglas hasn't transformed his play in 2014. He still has many of the same weaknesses and his strengths still remain pretty much the same.
 
Pfitzy

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Train Without a Station said:
Even when Horwill was struggling last year, Deans still opted for him over Douglas.
Click to expand...

dinodeans.jpg


And exclude Quade, while we're at it...

Moral to the story: you can't pick arguments and stats that suit your immediate case without considering their implications
 
Ignoto

Ignoto

John Thornett (49)
Did I miss the memo on Kane Douglas being the Wallaby savior? I could have sworn that 90% of his games in mustard have been well below par. Hell, looking at our very own G&GR player rankings, he appears to be around the 4-6 mark.
 
Brumby Runner

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Joe Blow said:
Horwill has been coming into form in the latter part of the season and he offers a lot in the second row. He can run the line out and play either side. Carter really was shown up for his body positioning and he just didn't have the defensive punch that won him a man of the match award against France on debut. The Saffas are the kings of holding up mauls for turnovers and they will be all over him.
I liked the idea of starting Skelton and replacing him when he was slowing up as was done against France. He had a huge impact in that test. We probably will not see it but this would be my side assuming all are fit.

Slipper
TPN
Kepu
Horwill
Skelton
Fardy
Hooper
Higgers
Phipps
Foley
Horne
To'omua
Kuridrani
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
Folau

Sio/Robinson
Alexander
Hansen
Simmons
Palu
White
Beale
Betham/Tomane
Click to expand...

Close to what I'd like to see also. Like you, I think Horwill is the natural replacement for Simmons as he can call the lineouts and has a lot more effective impact around the ground. I can go along with giving Skelton a start against the Saffas to see how he goes but I wasn't at all impressed with his efforts against the ABs. But if he's not up to scratch, where do we go? I really think Simmons has had all the chances he and another two locks deserve and he just doesn't cut it at test level. Carter is similar atm but could improve with more time and experience. So I'd persevere with him in favour of Simmons for the time being. If any of them continue to perform below par, I think both Jones and Neville have to be given their opportunities. Maybe even Wykes who was very effective for the Force this year.

6 and 8 are also dicey. Palu allegedly made the most tackles last game but tbh I got the impression watching the game live that he was pretty invisible. Certainly saw him miss one or two attempted big hits but otherwise can't say that I noticed him much. But he has had a good year beforehand and probably deserves to retain his spot for at least this game. Higgers did show a lot more when he came on late.

In the backline, Beale must drop to the bench. I can accept Phipps starting for White but we should remember that he has often disappointed when given more time in the past. It's a bit different coming on against tired opposition with 10-15 minutes to go to starting. But we shall see.

Foley to 10, Kuridrani to 13 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to wing. The bench spot for a winger is difficult. Betham was really awful in the second half of the NRC game. Still might be the only option at this time, but I wouldn't be avaerse to seeing either Uni wingers given a go despite their youth and lack of Super rugby experience. At least they are out and out wingers with lots of pace. Off the bench could be just the go for one of them.
 
fatprop

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Ignoto said:
Did I miss the memo on Kane Douglas being the Wallaby savior? I could have sworn that 90% of his games in mustard have been well below par. Hell, looking at our very own G&GR player rankings, he appears to be around the 4-6 mark.
Click to expand...


Douglas does the dog work for 80 minutes, his lack of "ratings" just highlights the lack of knowledge on tight forward play from the reviewers.

But he is gone now to somewhere that effort to cleanout and push is deemed a valuable resource.

(hint that isn't in aus where tight forwards are judged on the shit centres and wingers do)
 
KOB1987

KOB1987

Rod McCall (65)
this is going to be the 'consensus' team I feel:

1. Slipper
2. someone (i.e. depends on TPN being fit)
3. Kepu
4. Horwill
5. Simmons
6. Fardy
7. Hooper
8. Palu
9. Phipps
10. Foley
11. Horne
12. To'omua
13. Kuridrani
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Folau

16. someone else
17. Alexander
18. Cowan
19. Skelton
20. Higginbotham
21. White
22. Beale
23. Tomane
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
fatprop said:
Douglas does the dog work for 80 minutes, his lack of "ratings" just highlights the lack of knowledge on tight forward play from the reviewers.

But he is gone now to somewhere that effort to cleanout and push is deemed a valuable resource.

(hint that isn't in aus where tight forwards are judged on the shit centres and wingers do)
Click to expand...


That's complete BS Fatprop. If that was the case Hugh Pyle would be considered the best lock in Australia, but he's rightly not even rated North or Victoria due to his lack of doing his primary work.
 
rugbysmartarse

rugbysmartarse

Alan Cameron (40)
Train Without a Station said:
Douglas hasn't transformed his play in 2014.
Click to expand...

this is the part I dont agree wit. I thought is workrate and accuracy this Super season were much improved. Academic tough - I agree in not selecting him this year with his decision to skip the RWC.

My team for this week:

slipper - Hanson - Kepu
Horwill - Skelton
higgers - Palu - Hooper
Pipps - Foley
To'omua - Kuridrani
Horne - Folau - AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

TPN is "a couple of weeks away from contact" so no hope. I'd swap out all of simmons, carter and fardy, All have been sub par. Surely Horwill can run a line out?

I am torn about beale/To'omua at 12 - on one hand Pipps/foley/beale/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) had no issues at super level, but on the other I think our main problem in the first 2 tests was ability to realign on turnover, and Beale's positioning in defense was a main contributor to our problems. I'd persist with To'omua at this stage and spend 2 weeks practicing getting into offensive and defensive shapes quickly
 
KOB1987

KOB1987

Rod McCall (65)
my deviation from the consensus for this game would be to start Higginbotham over Fardy, and fuck Cowan off for Robbo

and barring an injury, Foley to play 80, Beale to come on for To'omua with 30 to go..at the same time bring Tomane on for Kuridrani, move AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to 13 and get some Tah magic happening..
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
I wouldn't start Skelton. He's a liability in areas, and his 15 minutes more dismissed than support of his physicality than support it.

You need to take risks in coaching, but they need to be educated ones. For Will to be worth starting, he needed to make some real impact on Saturday. He didn't.
 
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