Australia Vs Argentina, September 13, Gold Coast

[Slim 293]

It was unfotunate that Kimlin, like Kane Douglas, chose to go overseas while hittng peak form...........

 

[Train Without a Station]

Was it a loss though? Kimlin was playing 6 so he wasn't really a test lock option. Fardy was excellent in 2013.

In hindsight he might be great to have, or he might have struggled to repeat his 2014 form also.

 

[Braveheart81]

You'd have to think that Kimlin's 2013 form was the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Tomikin]

Kimlin was injured alot before last year but, if he wasn't going overseas he would have got first crack at six before Fardy. I'm pretty sure Fardy got his go because of injuries and ran with it..

 

[Slim 293]

Yeah, he got selected for the Wallabies before he became a starter at the Brumbies back in 2008 and then had several years of injuries following his test debut in 2009.............

He would certainly be a handy addition to the squad, but alas...........

 

[Train Without a Station]

Agree he likely would have been good last year. But considering the player that took the spot he would have likely won, was one of our best performers I can't see it as a loss.

More depth would be great. But also only 1 of the two would have played 6 for the Brumbies.

If Kimlin stayed Fardy may not have made the squad, and likely wouldn't have then made it this year so it's not like we'd have more depth. We'd just have a different player there.

 

[Wilson]

On lineout steals I think Schatz might have been the best of the Australians this year. Pity the rest of his game went backwards from 2013, otherwise he might've been an option.

 

[Viking]

It was unfotunate that Kimlin, like Kane Douglas, chose to go overseas while hittng peak form.....

Unfortunate timing. I believe he signed oversea's before getting picked for the wallabies thinking he would not make the squad. Once selected I heard he tried to get out of his contract but couldn't.

Bit different to players like Mowen and Douglas who already knew they were in the wallabies mix having been first choice at one time before.

 

[Pjmil]

Timani and Douglas were our biggest losses. 202/203cm, both 120kg. We need to have a look at our strength and conditioning with the remaining locks, they're all playing way too light. Horwill is a bit heavier but has the same size legs as Beale.

 

[USARugger]

Yeah Timani was big, and that was about it.

Seriously don't even go there.

 

[Lorenzo]

Personally I think ceteris paribus, the bigger the better. If we're gonna have ineffective locks they might as well be big. It's the same reason I'd give a nod to TK over AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) if I was in doubt that TK was the better pick (I'm not).

 

[USARugger]

PS if you're judging locks based on the width of their legs you may want to have a chat with these blokes:

I'll take ineffective locks that actually jump at lineouts and can secure our own ball at ruck time as opposed to some overweight fluffybunny who is going to be literally laying on the ground at our own ball and who is a guarantee we'll be running short line outs all night long. (This is not a shot in any way at Skelton who actually uses his size to effect, working to balance other deficiencies - something I don't think there is enough money in Australia to convince Timani to do).

I'll rarely comment on the work ethic of players as I don't really think we have the proper insight as fans to make that judgement, but I have never seen a professional rugby player who appeared as lazy or disinterested in rugby as I did with Timani.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Timani and Douglas were our biggest losses. 202/203cm, both 120kg. We need to have a look at our strength and conditioning with the remaining locks, they're all playing way too light. Horwill is a bit heavier but has the same size legs as Beale.

That's just incorrect.

They were our biggest losses physically but in no means were they by performance.

James Horwill is 200cm and 117kg but in his injury-free peak has been much more effective in contact than Timani.

Sam Carter is 200cm and apparently 110kg. So yes that is a touch on the light side. But gaining mass for the sake of mass is a pointless exercise. I agree Carter needs to gain a little bulk though.

Rob Simmons is 200cm and 115kg. Probably the perfect size for an international lock.

Keep in mind there are generally two distinctively different types of locks. There's a loosehead lock. A couple of examples are:

Victor Matfield - 201cm and 110kg
Sam Whitelock - 203cm and 114kg
Geoff Parling - 198cm and 114kg
Nathan Sharpe - 200cm and 115kg

Then there are tighthead locks. A couple of examples are:
Alun Wynn Jones - 198cm and 118kg
Paul O'Connell - 198cm and 114kg
Brodie Retallick - 204cm and 121kg
Bakkies Botha - 202cm and 124kg
Brad Thorrn - 195cm and 116kg
Flip Van Der Merwe - 198cm and 117kg
Courtney Lawes - 201cm and 118kg

Looking at the top tighthead locks in the world, Retallick and Botha seem to be more the exception than the rule especially when you consider that Retallick replaced Thorn and Van Der Merwe was the first to replace Botha.

Simmons is on the big side for the role he plays and Horwill is basically in the middle. He'd be big if he took the loosehead lock role focusing more on the line out and playing a little wider (Just not as wide as Shapre - please no).

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

As Bakkies once said: you need an athlete and a rock shifter in the second row. The athlete to dominate in the lineout and be a ball running/support option in the loose and the rock shifter to clean out at the breakdown and generally just smash blokes.

 

[Pjmil]

PS if you're judging locks based on the width of their legs you may want to have a chat with these blokes:

I'll take ineffective locks that actually jump at lineouts and can secure our own ball at ruck time as opposed to some overweight fluffybunny who is going to be literally laying on the ground at our own ball and who is a guarantee we'll be running short line outs all night long. (This is not a shot in any way at Skelton who actually uses his size to effect, working to balance other deficiencies - something I don't think there is enough money in Australia to convince Timani to do).

I'll rarely comment on the work ethic of players as I don't really think we have the proper insight as fans to make that judgement, but I have never seen a professional rugby player who appeared as lazy or disinterested in rugby as I did with Timani.

Those 3's legs are proportionate to their upper body, Horwills are small compared to his upper body. His core is also a lot weaker compared to someone like Retallick. Matfield could get away with being smaller because he always had a monster back row.

For a vertical lift 10kg is 10kg while 10kg of muscle is worth a lot more than it's actual weight. Australia needs to get with the roid program that other countries are obviously following. Fardy is 1.98 and 113kg but looks like a string bean to some of his counter parts.

 

[USARugger]

Horwill is disproportional? This is news to me.

He's always had skinnier legs, even before his injury. Do you think it's more likely a result of genetics or a failure in every S&C program he's ever been a part of?

The core strength comment...he gets on fine at scrum time and steals more ball at the LO than the majority of TH locks out there so I don't think he's exactly hurting in that department either.

If it is a remark on his ball carrying then I agree that Horwill is not the force he used to be in that regard. He tore his entire hamstring off the bone - I don't think he'll likely ever run with that kind of ferocity again.

We have issues with our locks but I'd look at about a dozen other things right now before the gym program because I don't think the S&C/size gap you've illuminated is quite as big as you think it is.

 

[Train Without a Station]

There is no S & C gap. It's all down to technical application and mental application.

There's the odd exception like Lawes though, but he's overrated as a lock anyway.

 

[qwerty51]

Overrated in what sense? He's top 5 in the world.

 

[Tomikin]

Well .. Lock drama's step up young fella

Now before everyone goes crazy I dont think he will even be close, but interesting question who is our next batch coming through, I only know Tom.. Skelton will be around for ages.. Any other young guns who are coming to save us ?

 

[Tomikin]

Overrated in what sense? He's top 5 in the world.

I would have him at the Brumbies and the Wallabies ..