Australian Rugby / RA

[KOB1987]

I think the answer here is nuance.

Any discussion about the removal of Cheika needs to have the caveat that like the removal of any leader, who replaces him is important. I'm not too flash hot on Jakeball and I see no other standout coaches off contract. Be careful what you wish for when removing a leader (history also shows this).

Not all woes come from coaching and most of Rugby's problems are actually institutionally based - changing the person at the top does little to rectify this.

Secondly, I think the internal power structures are not talked about enough. I think its emerged that Cheika is a little bit of an autocrat and has too much power both within the playing group and at HQ.

Part of this would be to do with HQ's inherent instability - revolving door, previous restructures etc have left the institution blowing in the wind and its power weakened - easily overrun by Cheika.

I think we need to keep Cheika but make him more consultative, accountable to both players and a selector as suggested by Cannon. Head office needs to limit his influence too.

Agree in entirety, good post.

 

[liquor box]

So the cancelled hookup with White was initiated by RA after it was leaked to the media, and that White approached RA with the offer to coach the Wallabies....



https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...at-in-the-wallabies-ring-20181129-p50j1z.html

I dont really understand why it was cancelled just because it became public.

Cheika is going to be pissed off now whether the call takes place or not.

As a rugby fan I want the call to go ahead, it is the first sign that we have that Rugby Australia think there might be a problem and that they might be able to do something about it.

 

[Set piece magic]

I dont really understand why it was cancelled just because it became public.

Cheika is going to be pissed off now whether the call takes place or not.

As a rugby fan I want the call to go ahead, it is the first sign that we have that Rugby Australia think there might be a problem and that they might be able to do something about it.

I agree - in fact this is a poor decision because it serves as an admission of guilt from RA. They made the decision they wanted to talk to him, it shouldn't be influenced my the meeting becoming public knowledge. They should own the decision.

Governing to win the 6 o'clock news is not a smart idea in the long term.

 

[RedsHappy]

Could Cheika and White possibly work together? I recall White and Eddie Jones doing so pretty successfully for the Boks.

Not sure either could put their egos aside to do it, though.

Knuckles and R Graham tried that after early declarations of comradeship.

Ended in a bitter disaster with Knuckles having to sue the QRU for unpaid fees.

 

[RedsHappy]

ahh gees.

I think I prefer Cheika and new assistants than these knee jerk appointments.

Let's plan now for 2020.

I think we often forget that any 'new assistants' worth their professional salt would by definition want to make major changes to almost all aspects of Wallaby selection and preparation. If that was not largely true why hire them?

Managerially, saying 'we'll keep a chronically underperforming boss and replace his poor underlings with better ones' almost always ends in tears and more dysfunction not least of which is the loss of clarity and effectiveness of the new elite team's communications with their staff/players.

 

[RedsHappy]

I agree - in fact this is a poor decision because it serves as an admission of guilt from RA. They made the decision they wanted to talk to him, it shouldn't be influenced my the meeting becoming public knowledge. They should own the decision.

Governing to win the 6 o'clock news is not a smart idea in the long term.

That was the explanation conveniently fed to GeoRob by RA who can as always be trusted to 'defend, excuse, or repeat' lines she's been fed by ARU/RA leakers. She is very rarely engaged in any meaningful critique of this body, or M Cheika for that matter.

I note that solely as - an alternative explanation - it's entirely possible that Clyne overruled Castle in setting up the call with White. That is how things often work there.

 

[Warpath]

why do ppl assume RA will fire Chieka? right now RA is Trump and Chieka is the Saudi Prince, even if he killed rugby in australia, RA will not be firing him, if anything, they would fire his deputies cause "scapegoating" is what Castle is good at doing..

 

[Set piece magic]

That was the explanation conveniently fed to GeoRob by RA who can as always be trusted to 'defend, excuse, or repeat' lines she's been fed by ARU/RA leakers. She is very rarely engaged in any meaningful critique of this body, or M Cheika for that matter.

I note that solely as - an alternative explanation - it's entirely possible that Clyne overruled Castle in setting up the call with White. That is how things often work there.

Fair enough but it's easy to grandstand on the role of journalists in getting information - unfortunately the realpolitik of a situation is that you have to trade favourable coverage to get the drops. Maybe GeoRob does too much of this in return for not offering a legitimate critique of RA, but you've got to play the game at some point otherwise no drops

 

[RedsHappy]

That would be a far better outcome than terminating Cheika, and then bringing on someone like Scott Johnson making us the laughing stock of world rugby...

In the situation that Cheika goes then White surrounded by quality support staff would be the way to go, but I wouldn't be signing him on a long term contract, and we'd to make sure there is a succession plan in place in the chance that he fails or pisses off early.

Just to recall: White 'pissed off early' from the Brumbies /Aust rugby essentially as he believed - rightly or wrongly - that B Pulver misled him regarding the seriousness and candidate equivalence by which we would be assessed for the post-Deans HC of the Wallabies.

 

[GingerBreadCrab]

That was the explanation conveniently fed to GeoRob by RA who can as always be trusted to 'defend, excuse, or repeat' lines she's been fed by ARU/RA leakers. She is very rarely engaged in any meaningful critique of this body, or M Cheika for that matter.

I note that solely as - an alternative explanation - it's entirely possible that Clyne overruled Castle in setting up the call with White. That is how things often work there.

Georgina is probably the most unbiased and tolerable rugby writer in Australia at the moment - are we talking about the same GeeRob?

 

[GingerBreadCrab]

Just to recall: White 'pissed off early' from the Brumbies /Aust rugby essentially as he believed - rightly or wrongly - that B Pulver misled him regarding the seriousness and candidate equivalence by which we would be assessed for the post-Deans HC of the Wallabies.

A surprisingly common theme in Australia amongst coaches holding the equivalent to an IRB Level 4. Turnstiles.

 

[RedsHappy]

Fair enough but it's easy to grandstand on the role of journalists in getting information - unfortunately the realpolitik of a situation is that you have to trade favourable coverage to get the drops. Maybe GeoRob does too much of this in return for not offering a legitimate critique of RA, but you've got to play the game at some point otherwise no drops

I kind of agree with you however decent, respectable and serious journalism must balance the elites leak receipt factor with some capacity to serve readership with objective analysis and reasoned critique re the subject matter of their coverage.

GeoRob principally:

- takes the ARU/RA policy line on just about everything
- routinely comes up with poorly justified 'defences' or 'helpful explanations' of their positions on most matters
- 'soft soaps' M Cheika's appalling 2016-18 record with all manner of excuses and forgivenesses
- discusses the serious problems of the code here as though some kind philosophical inevitability with no identifiable genesis vs the responsibility of those trusted to run it well

In that she's in good company with many other very lazy rugby journalists (and some posters here) in this country. They play an indirect role in aiding the perpetuation of RA's self-excusing, self-justifying toxic culture of denial and poor governance.

A robust, critical, analytically objective sports media plays a serious role in keeping the management of sports' codes honest and open to alternative views of themselves and what they should be doing for the public and players they are meant to serve.

 

[RedsHappy]

Georgina is probably the most unbiased and tolerable rugby writer in Australia at the moment - are we talking about the same GeeRob?

We obviously share different standards and employ different definitions of 'writer' and serious journalists' responsibilities to their readers. Fair enough. She needs fans.

 

[RedsHappy]

why do ppl assume RA will fire Chieka? right now RA is Trump and Chieka is the Saudi Prince, even if he killed rugby in australia, RA will not be firing him, if anything, they would fire his deputies cause "scapegoating" is what Castle is good at doing..
View attachment 10369

I agree. As I said somewhere above it's entirely possible and plausible that RA will roll out a 'we support MC and his RWC plan and will back him to deliver it' line.

The essential problem is that RA lacks the competencies in-depth and essential to the designing and recruiting of elite rugby coaches.

Was it not obvious from 2016's debacles and poor w-l % that there were at least some serious deficiencies in the Wallaby coaching capability set? Did these not flow through in various ways to 2017's outcomes and then the inability to win home games against Ireland's A team (a B version played in Test 1)?

2016-17, maybe early 2018, was the time to at the very least bolster MC with better ACs and perhaps too an independent selector/adviser. But RA took no action then and accordingly - at the feet of a RWC year as panic sets in - it's very likely they will baulk at changes now partly as they (a) have no idea what changes to most usefully make and (b) how to attract the right global elite coaching talent to make them. Or they will make stupid panic-driven changes that will only makes things worse (if such is possible).

The ARU/RA is also terrible at never admitting mistakes and misjudgements. It is never publicly wrong about anything. That failing attribute is also likely to remain unchanged with an ex-big bank CEO as its Chair.

 

[GingerBreadCrab]

We obviously share different standards and employ different definitions of 'writer' and serious journalists' responsibilities to their readers. Fair enough. She needs fans.

She can only report on what she's told and what she sees happen. She hasn't got a seat inside the boardroom at Moore Park.
To report upon rumours and the sort of drivel that Alan Jones spouts would be grossly irresponsible.

Talking contextually, given the climate of Australian rugby, are there any writers you prefer?

 

[Warpath]

Australian Rugby (the sport in australia, not the governing body) were sort of "lucky" when the Wobblies got thrashed by England as it allowed RA in generally to realise that "yeah Chieka is not working out" as England are in the same pool as Australia in the RWC but unfortunately, the media in Australia did not play a strong enough part to push this point across which means RA will find a way of retaining Chieka because their biggest fear is picking another coach as it will show their incompetence as a rugby union governing body as their last big decision (axing Western Force) nearly destroyed interest in rugby union in Australia.

Twiggy has shown that he knows more about saving Rugby in Australia than the whole RA Board...

 

[Set piece magic]

Australian Rugby (the sport in australia, not the governing body) were sort of "lucky" when the Wobblies got thrashed by England as it allowed RA in generally to realise that "yeah Chieka is not working out" as England are in the same pool as Australia in the RWC but unfortunately, the media in Australia did not play a strong enough part to push this point across which means RA will find a way of retaining Chieka because their biggest fear is picking another coach as it will show their incompetence as a rugby union governing body as their last big decision (axing Western Force) nearly destroyed interest in rugby union in Australia.

Twiggy has shown that he knows more about saving Rugby in Australia than the whole RA Board.

Sadly, this misguided post could not be further from the truth. The first thing to point out is that Australia is not in the same group as England at the RWC.

Secondly, no organisation worth their salt makes key decisions based on media coverage, be it a company, a political party or an NFP like RA. The organisation must make the decisions that's right, not the decision favoured by media pundits. If it acquiesces to media pressure, it both undermines its authority, and regularly makes the wrong decision. Rugby administrators pay close attention to the media, the corollary of which is public opinion, looking for analysis and perspective, but the idea they just run policy based on whatever column surfaces is silly.

Finally, on twiggy, I have yet to see any evidence that he knows anything about Rugby at all, little known saving it. He's a mining magnate turned community philanthropist - fair enough, good on him. But at Western Force press conferences last year, Twiggy regularly appeared not to know key facts about the Western Force, their players, their fan base.

If you look at his thought bubble proposals for an alternative rugby competition, it's easy to justify this view. They haven't been thought through and lack rigorous attention to detail that any expansion team - let alone new competition - requires.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Twiggy is not a rugby diehard, but he does have some connection to the game. He admits all of this.

Do you think he knows any more or any less than Mourad Boudjellal?

Its a moot point as far as I can see.

The rest of your post is bang on though.

 

[Warpath]

sure my bad, 3rd ranked wales is a bigger threat than 4 ranked England even though they play the same brand of rugby, secondly Media has the power to take down an empire (i won't mention anything regarding history as you should already know that unless education in Australia is a bigger problem) , the fact is, Media in australia don't give a ratass about rugby union unlike NZ where media in nz has kept rugby NZ Rugby honest, no controversies there, everything is direct. They don't even care about the opinion of former wallabies let alone fans who honesty, are dwindling in numbers....When was the last time people packed a stadium in australia to watch a rugby union game? not to mention FOX is killing interest in rugby union as well but lets not talk about that, the grassroots rugby is dying, won't mention NRC cause its existence for the next 5 years seems less and less, axing the force meant a few good players are now going overseas as they have no place in the 4 other teams.

Twiggy may not know much about the sport but apparently he knows more than than RA to try and save it, now what does that tell u about RA in general? his WSR was kinda success honestly, compared to NRC atleast. The FRU and RA are quite similar actually, they have both picked inept coaches they can control whop are embarrassing the nation but refuse to dump them because they fear it will show everyone that they are inept themselves...

 

[Bandar]

The FRU and RA are quite similar actually, they have both picked inept coaches they can control whop are embarrassing the nation but refuse to dump them because they fear it will show everyone that they are inept themselves.

I think John McKee is doing a good job with the 15's and Ben Ryan turned out OK for the 7's. Overall on the coaching front i think the FRU is doing OK - I would take McKee for the Wallaby's job