Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2008

[high tower]

In what maybe a major shift in the power base of shoolboy rugby, St Augustines will play St Stanislaus(spelling?) in the final of the Waratah sheild.
Two schools from the ISA will play off for rights to call themselves the top school rugby team in NSW.
THe GPS and CAS faithful can hold onto their traditional competitons but these two schools have taken on all comers and are still standing.
The ISA schools played their inter school competion thru the first week of NSW school rugby trials and probaly cost a few players their best chance of NSW schools and possibly Aust schools representation this year, the ISA forwards were noticably flat in the final trial against CAS with many playing their 4th or 5th game in 8 days.
I read elsewhere on the scarf the call for the GPS and CAS teams to play more games(not just trials) against varied opposition, perhaps if the GPS and CAS schools put the waratah sheild on equal footing with the GPS and CAS school competitions we might see an improvement in the overall quality of schoolboy rugby in Australia.

 

[barbarian]

You could well be right there, ht. But it ain't going to happen any time soon.

While guys like Spiro call for a more professional setup in schoolboy footy (more games, greater competition etc), this is exactly the thing GPS and CAS headmasters want to avoid. The GPS has been gradually getting more professional over the last ten years (as press coverage increases), but schools still see rugby as secondary to the educational goals of the school. The GPS has had plenty of offers from TV and print media for greater game coverage, but rejected pretty much all of them, as it goes against the fundamental ethos of the GPS (ie education and development first and sport second), which is something they take very seriously.

So whist it would be great from the perspective of Australian rugby to have a longer, more proffesional schoolboy comp, you have to wonder if it is in the best interest of the boys, their parents, and the school. Because putting too much emphasis on rugby at such a young age can have dangerous consequences.

 

[high tower]

It seems like the GPS and CAS schools are happy to play numerous trials before their competition starts against various scools from outside their associations- but then fall back on the ol "it was only a trial and so and so was wrapped in cotton wool and couldnt play".
Perhaps if they wiped all but one of these "trials" and played a few "real" games in their place some of them might toughen up and be better prepared for the real world out there.
Without doubt a balance of school and sport needs to be maintained, but it seems like the traditions of GPS and CAS sporting competions is what is holding back our best rugby players.
With 3 or 4 schools in GPS, 2 or 3 CAS schools and 3 or 4 ISa schools dominating each of there competions our best 16 to 18 year old rugby players are having about 5 - 7 tough games in a season including rep games. The best of the CHS and left over independent and catholic colleges are playing in sub standard village comps that have been raped by the GPS, CAS and ISA competitions
Not much of a preparation for senior rugby.

 

[The Chosen]

It seems like the GPS and CAS schools are happy to play numerous trials before their competition starts against various scools from outside their associations- but then fall back on the ol "it was only a trial and so and so was wrapped in cotton wool and couldnt play".
Perhaps if they wiped all but one of these "trials" and played a few "real" games in their place some of them might toughen up and be better prepared for the real world out there.
Without doubt a balance of school and sport needs to be maintained, but it seems like the traditions of GPS and CAS sporting competions is what is holding back our best rugby players.
With 3 or 4 schools in GPS, 2 or 3 CAS schools and 3 or 4 ISa schools dominating each of there competions our best 16 to 18 year old rugby players are having about 5 - 7 tough games in a season including rep games. The best of the CHS and left over independent and catholic colleges are playing in sub standard village comps that have been raped by the GPS, CAS and ISA competitions
Not much of a preparation for senior rugby.

Well it's going to change next year. For a number of years it has been suggested that the GPS & CAS associations should merge their Rugby competitions and play in 2 Divisions, possibly:

`A' Joeys,Riverview,Kings,Shore,Knox,Waverley & Barker
`B' Scots,Newington,Grammar/High,Aloys,Trinity & Cranbrook

I understand it has been 2 or 3 GPS Schools who weren't interested.

Therefore for the next 2 years the CAS Schools are going to play a 10 game Home & Away competition, which will rule out most of the former `trial' games against GPS Schools.

 

[barbarian]

The idea that came closest to being adopted was a north/south system, which pitted the schools on north side of the habour against eachother and the south against eachother. So you would have:

North: Riverview, Shore, Barker, Knox, Aloys, Kings, Joeys (Kings geographical position is sketchy, but for a better comp you would have them in the north)

South: Scots, Waverley, Trinity, Grammar, High, Newington, Cranbrook

Which would be pretty good way to sort it out- cuts down on travel, and you have two pretty even comps right there.

But tradition is a hard thing to overcome, and in the end the status quo reigned. As I said before, the GPS headmasters see tradition and friendly competition as more important than a high quality rugby comp that will best serve Australian rugby. I think its a fair enough call, but obviously would like to see a better comp.

The 2 round CAS comp will change things as far as trials go, but the GPS won't go for a 2 round comp any time soon IMO. They will play more inter-GPS trials, and more with ISA and CHS schools, which can only be a good thing. The CAS has the luxury of two less schools (if you include High in the GPS comp) which makes a two round comp far easier.

 

[sphill]

I will be speaking shorlty with Tim hawkes about this issue.
The meeting for the AAGPS will be convening soon and this is high priority.

Thanks to the CG from Sportal who notified me of this forum.
This seems to be a much more adult world where discussion is welcomed.
I have left sportal for good.
Looking forward to making a contribution.

 

[AussieDominance]

I will be speaking shorlty with Tim hawkes about this issue.
The meeting for the AAGPS will be convening soon and this is high priority.

Thanks to the CG from Sportal who notified me of this forum.
This seems to be a much more adult world where discussion is welcomed.
I have left sportal for good.
Looking forward to making a contribution.

Welcome Phil im not sure if Lee is aware but Phil is one of your Joeys mates! Hopefully we are in for some insightful now with Phil and Lee here unlike the gremlins from Sportal.

Phil may I ask Brother Henry that is an amazing record how old was he when he started and how old is he now? Coaching that is?

Cheers.

 

[Lee Grant]

Welcome aboard sphill.

It was strange to read your stuff on Sportal because they were like islands of sanity in a sea of lunacy. I have to confess that I often used your tidbits of information as my own stuff.



PS - Queenslanders - get to the test match early on Saturday night and give us a report on the Oz Schools game v Fiji.

The game starts at 5.50pm.

 

[Lindommer]

Phil may I ask Brother Henry that is an amazing record how old was he when he started and how old is he now? Coaching that is?

The famous Brother Henry, an Old Boy of Nudgee, started coaching the Joeys Firsts in the late 20s (27 or 28?) when he was in his late 30s. He retired from coaching about 1955 and died on Christmas Day 1970. His legacy of enjoying rugby based on a fast game with hard-working terriers for forwards and backs running their legs off remains at Joeys to this day. He always thought rugby was a game to be enjoyed rather than won. He became a bit long-winded in older age but his yen for things rugby never left him.

There are a few apocryphal tales how he ended up with Joeys' Marist Brothers rather than Nudgee's Christian Brothers.

 

[Lee Grant]

I forgot that Oz A Schools were playing Fiji at Knox on Saturday afternoon but wouldn't have gone anyway because of the execrable weather and there being no shelter available from the rain at Knox.

Oz A beat Fiji 30-7 and scored 4 tries to 1, but the visitors got a yellow card in the first half and a yellow and red card from one incident in the second with 30 minutes to go. The score was 10-7 to Oz A at the time.

Under domestic schools law players can be replaced whatever the colour of the card, but not so in international schools matches these days. Also the international yellow card time is 10 minutes as compared to the domestic 5 minutes.

These international schools laws were trialled in the Oz Schools tournament in Canberra in July.

Thus Fiji had 13 men for 10 minutes and 14 men for a total of 30 minutes in a game that lasts 70 minutes at the schools level.

They didn't give themselves much of a chance.

 

[Lee Grant]

One of the key things for the Oz A players at Knox was: who would be chosen as the 8 reserves for the "test match" against Fiji in the curtain raiser to the Bledisloe on Saturday night at SunCorp. All the lads will get a run in the game.

The 8 players chosen (and their jersey numbers in the July Oz Schools tournament) were:

1. David Feao
2. Siliva Siliva
3. Dylan Brass
4. Luke Jones
9. Eddie Bredanhann
12. Stephano Hunt

These two did not play in the Oz Schools tournament:

12/13 Tim Bennetts
7/8 Colby Fainga'a

It's good to see 9 Brendanhann getting a shot. I thought he may have been a chance for the 1st XV but Justin Turner has just been with the Force squad on their European tour and should be in fine fettle.

7 Michael Hooper, wasn't picked, despite being the best player in the Oz Schools tournament in Canberra IMO, but he's still in Yr.11 and they probably preferred the older player who can play in other spots. Or maybe I'm a dud judge, in which case I wasn't the Lone Ranger that week in Canberra, regarding Hooper.

It may be ironic if 7 Colby Fainga'a, brother of Saia and Anthony, plays league and not rugby union when he leaves school.

Tim Bennetts must have had a cracking game against Fiji because he scored 3 tries. Tim had to play in the Oz Schools tournament for NSW last year out of position on the wing because Robbie Horne and Cameron Mitchell had dibs on the midfield position. He has done well to get into the Oz XXIII after missing this year's comp.

Just a reminder of the Oz Schools 1st XV:

Oz Schools 1st XV as selected (with my numbering):

1 Salesi Manu St Augustine?s College NSW
2 Sam Roberson St Stanislaus? College NSW
3 Josh Daley The Southport School QLD
4 Nick Buchanan St Joseph's Gregory Terrace QLD
5 Mark Johnson Knox Grammar School NSW
6 Josh Ellice-Flint The Kings School NSW
7 Kotoni Ale St Augustine?s College NSW
8 Jarrad Butler The Southport School QLD
9 Justin Turner Central College WA
10 Robbie Coleman St. Edmunds College ACT
11 Nicky Price St Joseph's Nudgee College QLD
12 Michael McDougall The Kings School NSW
13 Cameron Mitchell The Kings School NSW
14 Dom Shipperley St Joseph's Nudgee College QLD
15 Tyler Stephens St. Edmunds College ACT

I don't know if Mitchell is fit to play. He's had a terrible season for injuries and was limping noticeably during the Joeys v Kings game the Saturday before last.

Queenslanders at SunCorp should play particular attention to 11. Nicky Price, who has Super14 written all over him. This is the lad who is tossing up whether should play rugby union or Aussie Rules after leaving school.

Also watch lock Nick Buchanan, son of ex-Oz cricket coach John. At lineout time the son also rises.

Anyone at the game do me a favour and have a look at 7. Kotoni Ale from NSW for me and tell me how he went. Not a specialist fetcher, he can play any of the backrow positions, but he plays beyond his years and looks like S14 material if he ends up big enough.

 

[Gagger]

Phil may I ask Brother Henry that is an amazing record how old was he when he started and how old is he now? Coaching that is?

His legacy of enjoying rugby based on a fast game with hard-working terriers for forwards and backs running their legs off remains at Joeys to this day.

When I was at the College there was a legend about the "scissors" move he used to run, in which one winger cross-kicked to the other winger. I believe you can actually buy his play book.(?)

 

[Lindommer]

When I was at the College there was a legend about the "scissors" move he used to run, in which one winger cross-kicked to the other winger. I believe you can actually buy his play book.(?)

PM me and I'll give you the drum.

 

[The Chosen]

I forgot that Oz A Schools were playing Fiji at Knox on Saturday afternoon but wouldn't have gone anyway because of the execrable weather and there being no shelter available from the rain at Knox.

Oz A beat Fiji 30-7 and scored 4 tries to 1, but the visitors got a yellow card in the first half and a yellow and red card from one incident in the second with 30 minutes to go. The score was 10-7 to Oz A at the time.

Under domestic schools law players can be replaced whatever the colour of the card, but not so in international schools matches these days. Also the international yellow card time is 10 minutes as compared to the domestic 5 minutes.

These international schools laws were trialled in the Oz Schools tournament in Canberra in July.

Thus Fiji had 13 men for 10 minutes and 14 men for a total of 30 minutes in a game that lasts 70 minutes at the schools level.

They didn't give themselves much of a chance.

You could have joined me under my umbrella Lee. Despite the weather there must have been 1500 people there, including Robbie Deans.
Until the double sending off it was a close match- but this ended with the send offs. The yellow card for `a xmas hold' was undoubtedly justified but the red card for a reflex head-high was pretty rough.
Despite the conditions, Bennetts backed up very competantly and used great footwork for his second try.
The Aust `A" forwards toiled very strongly - for the life of me I can't understand how Quirk(Brisbane State High) & Rissman(Knox) did not make the Reserve list for Brisbane. Similarly Damon Anderson(Cranbrook) never put a foot wrong. The conditions did not suit his game-he is a class player.

 

[AussieDominance]

I was there John McKee and Chris Hickey were as well.

Good to see them at these games for the future of Australian Rugby.

The Fiji boys got a bit carried away but as you said was close up until half time referee turned it into a penaltyathon although he was a decent ref.

Rissman ran the ball well but got a bit lazy at times : case that forward pass where it was his fault that it went forward as he over ran it. No doubt a good runner though. This is a fairly non biased view from someone who knows and has played with him!

 

[barbarian]

Read today that Nick Buchanan has also been picked in the Australian under 18 cricket squad. Talented bloke by the sounds of it...

 

[The Chosen]

Did anone see the Test curtain-raiser- Australian Schools vs Fijian U18s.
Apparently Fiji led with some 15 minutes or so to go but an converted Aussie try ,resulted in a 24-18 win.
I understand that it has since been discovered that the WA scrum-half Turner has left School and is now at TAFE which disqualifies him from the trip to Tonga & NZ.
The Touring party is listed on Australian Schools Rugby website and great to see Quirk(Brisbane State High) and Rissman (Knox Grammar) have been added to the squad. I had previously noted their great performance in the Aust `A' game and was surprised they were not on bench yesterday.

 

[footyhead]

Re: Oz Schools rugby 2008(Elite Rugby Pathway)

I am very familiar with the elite junior RL pathway, Hmatts, SG Ball, Toyota Cup to whereever etc and i know first hand about the $15 k per annum an u/20 player straight out of high school is given towards their education, plus $350 a week living a away from home allowance and their share of the $250K the U/20 team gets allocated. But can anyone please give me a rundown of the elite junior RU pathway from U/16 yrs up, particularly for boys who only play union for their school, ie in the GPS, CAS comp etc and the associated school association Rep Teams. Where does the elite pathway really start and when do S14 clubs or their agents start tapping kids on the shoulder? If a boy makes U/18 Australian Schoolboys RL they are normally well and truly attached to an NRL club, is this also the case with RU and the Austrlian teams that played Fiji recently? Also, how do union look after the boys when they leave school and play Colts etc and how do they factor in their career options with training etc as the case with the Toyota cup that I outlined earlier. Thanks.

 

[spectator]

I think the short answer is that the talent identified players get an Academy gig as the first step towards S14 and beyond. These players get a bit of pin money and focused coaching etc..The rest just take their chances in Grade rugby, first with Colts, then hopefully Prems..

I did notice somewhere that there will be a Qld vs NSW U17 match on soon, so maybe there is some thought as to how to make the game more meaningful for a lot more kids.

Sevens is another area of possible opportunity for youngsters to develop and get rep opportunities.

 

[the gambler]

Everyone be quiet. I think footyhead is a player manager and is about to start poaching all the promising schoolboys players.