Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
A strange criticism of a kid playing in the Australian Schools side.
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Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
Wow!!! All that from a youtube clip???
Are you related to Bagsby? And if you think young Jack is small, go and stand beside him when he flys back in to Australia.
And maybe, just maybe, they were playing to the game plan that their coaching staff asked them to play?
These young gentlemen, whilst losing this game, are apparently winning a lot of friends in the home nations for being just that... Gentlemen representing their country at Schoolboy level.
I'm sorry Chisholm , but I have to go now and boo Santa down at the local shopping centre
Are you related to Bagsby? And if you think young Jack is small, go and stand beside him when he flys back in to Australia.
And maybe, just maybe, they were playing to the game plan that their coaching staff asked them to play?
These young gentlemen, whilst losing this game, are apparently winning a lot of friends in the home nations for being just that... Gentlemen representing their country at Schoolboy level.
I'm sorry Chisholm , but I have to go now and boo Santa down at the local shopping centre
Eyes and Ears
Bob Davidson (42)
Second cousins LG. How are your holidays?
They are second cousins, once removed not second cousins based on Lee's explanation of their family relationship.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I think your being a bit thin skinned.
I'm sure he would agree with you that they are all a great kids off the field.
Most of the points he made were credible IMO.
However, it should be remembered that the 2 sides have not had equal preparations in the past 6 months.
Many boys in our side will improve dramatically with a preparation similar to the English players.
The comments made on the English game were made not from watching the YouTube clip but rather from watching the game streamed live. Deegan is a goer but at this stage of his career has little appreciation of alignment or the gain line. A weakness of schoolboy tens is their error in thinking standing deeper gives them more time when in fact the opposite holds true. One only has to compare cooper and Barnes to appreciate that...
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I thought the whole team played like a bunch of teenagers
The game according to the Aust Schools Web site.
MATCH REPORT: Macquarie Bank Australian Schools v England Under 18s
The Harrow School, Wednesday 4th December 2013
The match against England Under 18s was played at the salubrious setting of The Harrow School in north west London. The players ran onto the field in cold and cloudy conditions. The Australian boys were immediately on the back foot after turning over early ball and the English capitalized by securing multi-phase ball and placing the Australians under severe pressure with wave after wave of English ball runners hitting the willing Australian defence. Unfortunately, the first penalty was awarded to England from an infringement at the breakdown well within kicking range. England fly half, Tom Morton kicked accurately to score the first points of the game with a successful penalty goal.
From the restart, England once again secured possession and through patient phase play once again threatened the Australian line but the Boys in gold stood firm with bruising defence. The English boys knew they were in for a tight match and quickly opted for another penalty goal attempt when Australia once again infringed at the breakdown. Tom Morton kicked the goal for 6-0 lead. Australia started to show promise in attack on the back of some strong carry’s from centre, Tepai Moeroa. Every time Australia threatened the English responded swiftly and were rewarded with yet another penalty within kicking range. Tom Morton maintained his accuracy to guide the penalty attempt straight through the posts and a 9-0 lead to England.
Australia were next to score when Andrew Deegan kicked a long range penalty goal following strong play by the Australian forwards who were starting to play over the top of their rivals resulting in an English infringement. England maintained their 9-3 lead as the players paused for half time.
The Australian boys started the second half with continued physicality and were unlucky not to score on several occasions but the English were playing with great character as well. Exchanges were torrid as both teams tacked and ripped in at the breakdown with tremendous passion.
An Australian mistake while in possession, gifted the English with a great attacking opportunity and after several quality phases of play, England Captain James Chisholm crashed over for the first try of the match much to the delight of the England supporters. Fullback, Aaron Morris successfully converted the try and England now had Australia on the ropes with a lead of 16 – 3 and only ten minutes of the match remaining. The Australian boys never gave up and through everything at the English defence but they were holding firm to deny Australia any more points in the match.
At the death, England were throwing the ball around testing the Australian defence and were rewarded with their second try, this time to replacement winger, Will Hayward who raced around to score adjacent to the uprights. Aaron Morris once again raised the flags on the clutches of the full time whistle with England deserving their victory 23 – 3.
England Under 18s 23
Tries – James Chisholm, Tom Hayward
Conversions – Aaron Morris x 2
Penalty Goals – Tom Morton x 3
Defeated
Macquarie Bank Australian Schools 3
Penalty Goal – Andrew Deegan
http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/
MATCH REPORT: Macquarie Bank Australian Schools v England Under 18s
The Harrow School, Wednesday 4th December 2013
The match against England Under 18s was played at the salubrious setting of The Harrow School in north west London. The players ran onto the field in cold and cloudy conditions. The Australian boys were immediately on the back foot after turning over early ball and the English capitalized by securing multi-phase ball and placing the Australians under severe pressure with wave after wave of English ball runners hitting the willing Australian defence. Unfortunately, the first penalty was awarded to England from an infringement at the breakdown well within kicking range. England fly half, Tom Morton kicked accurately to score the first points of the game with a successful penalty goal.
From the restart, England once again secured possession and through patient phase play once again threatened the Australian line but the Boys in gold stood firm with bruising defence. The English boys knew they were in for a tight match and quickly opted for another penalty goal attempt when Australia once again infringed at the breakdown. Tom Morton kicked the goal for 6-0 lead. Australia started to show promise in attack on the back of some strong carry’s from centre, Tepai Moeroa. Every time Australia threatened the English responded swiftly and were rewarded with yet another penalty within kicking range. Tom Morton maintained his accuracy to guide the penalty attempt straight through the posts and a 9-0 lead to England.
Australia were next to score when Andrew Deegan kicked a long range penalty goal following strong play by the Australian forwards who were starting to play over the top of their rivals resulting in an English infringement. England maintained their 9-3 lead as the players paused for half time.
The Australian boys started the second half with continued physicality and were unlucky not to score on several occasions but the English were playing with great character as well. Exchanges were torrid as both teams tacked and ripped in at the breakdown with tremendous passion.
An Australian mistake while in possession, gifted the English with a great attacking opportunity and after several quality phases of play, England Captain James Chisholm crashed over for the first try of the match much to the delight of the England supporters. Fullback, Aaron Morris successfully converted the try and England now had Australia on the ropes with a lead of 16 – 3 and only ten minutes of the match remaining. The Australian boys never gave up and through everything at the English defence but they were holding firm to deny Australia any more points in the match.
At the death, England were throwing the ball around testing the Australian defence and were rewarded with their second try, this time to replacement winger, Will Hayward who raced around to score adjacent to the uprights. Aaron Morris once again raised the flags on the clutches of the full time whistle with England deserving their victory 23 – 3.
England Under 18s 23
Tries – James Chisholm, Tom Hayward
Conversions – Aaron Morris x 2
Penalty Goals – Tom Morton x 3
Defeated
Macquarie Bank Australian Schools 3
Penalty Goal – Andrew Deegan
http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/
From ASRU Web site. Results of the raffle. Appears that the boys didn't go too far from home to sell their raffle books.
http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?id=203438
http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?id=203438
The Tour Diary implies no serious injuries from the ENG U18 game.
Seems Kellaway should be OK then, despite being replaced rather early on in the piece vs ENG, and missing WAL game. If so, that will be good news leading into the SCO game tomorrow.
Any idea on when the team list for SCO will be announced?
Seems Kellaway should be OK then, despite being replaced rather early on in the piece vs ENG, and missing WAL game. If so, that will be good news leading into the SCO game tomorrow.
Any idea on when the team list for SCO will be announced?
MACQUARIE BANK AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS RUGBY TEAM to play SCOTLAND UNDER 18s at Myreside, Edinburgh, SUNDAY 8th DECEMBER 2013
1 Fereti Sa'aga Thornbury HS Vic
2 Connal McInerney Erindale College ACT
3 Vunipola Fifita Newington College, NSW
4 Joshua Anderson Oakhill College, NSW
5 Ned Hanigan St. Joseph’s College, NSW
6 Jack McCalman The King’s School, NSW ©
7 Douglas MacMillan Anglican Church Grammar School, QLD
8 Rohboni Warren Vosayaco Endeavour Sports HS, NSW
9 Mitchell Short The Scot’s College, NSW
10 Andrew Deegan St. Joseph’s College, NSW
11 Adrian Henley Trinity Anglican School, Cairns, QLD
12 Tepai Moeroa Newington College, NSW
13 Taane Milne Newington College
14 Harry Jones Barker College, NSW
15 Andrew Kellaway The Scot’s College, NSW
16 Matthew Sandell St. Joseph’s College, NSW
17 Alex Mafi St. Joseph’s Nudgee College, QLD
18 Evander Guttenbeil The Southport School, QLD
19 Lachlan Cannell Newington College, NSW
20 David Morris Newington College, NSW
21 James Tuttle St. Joseph’s Nudgee College, QLD
22 Mitchell Third The Southport School, QLD
23 James Todd Ipswich Grammar School, QLD
1 Fereti Sa'aga Thornbury HS Vic
2 Connal McInerney Erindale College ACT
3 Vunipola Fifita Newington College, NSW
4 Joshua Anderson Oakhill College, NSW
5 Ned Hanigan St. Joseph’s College, NSW
6 Jack McCalman The King’s School, NSW ©
7 Douglas MacMillan Anglican Church Grammar School, QLD
8 Rohboni Warren Vosayaco Endeavour Sports HS, NSW
9 Mitchell Short The Scot’s College, NSW
10 Andrew Deegan St. Joseph’s College, NSW
11 Adrian Henley Trinity Anglican School, Cairns, QLD
12 Tepai Moeroa Newington College, NSW
13 Taane Milne Newington College
14 Harry Jones Barker College, NSW
15 Andrew Kellaway The Scot’s College, NSW
16 Matthew Sandell St. Joseph’s College, NSW
17 Alex Mafi St. Joseph’s Nudgee College, QLD
18 Evander Guttenbeil The Southport School, QLD
19 Lachlan Cannell Newington College, NSW
20 David Morris Newington College, NSW
21 James Tuttle St. Joseph’s Nudgee College, QLD
22 Mitchell Third The Southport School, QLD
23 James Todd Ipswich Grammar School, QLD
Kellaway was OK—they just didn't want him to play the whole match after his groin niggle.
Here's a quote from someone who was at the England game:
The size difference in the fwds was very noticeable………that 6 months or so of Academy S&C obviously makes a huge difference.
It's not just the 6 months since they left school though—it's also the period they have been with the clubs whilst still at school.
We have this system here also—in the rugby league code.
But I have no complaint that schoolboys should be treated as schoolboys until they leave school, nor with the quaint idea that their school years should be about education.
It's a pity about the rugby consequences of this—just call me old-fashioned.
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I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I struggle to understand how these Academy boys train harder or longer than the GPS Schoolboys.
Do they have more days in the week over there?
Do they have more days in the week over there?
They left school in May so they would have been full-time since then.
At the same time as the Pom boys were in the gym or on the training paddock our lads (NSW at least) were studying for their HSC (mixed with their rugby stuff).
But it's not only the period since May that is relevant.
Had you seen the England U/18 lads in June 2011, they had just left school, yet their strength and conditioning was palpably superior to an Oz U/19 team they played, and, of course, the Oz Schools team, who looked like schoolboys.
These 2011 young Poms had already been involved with their club Academies for a couple of years before they left school—a similar situation to what our league boys are in.
They were as muscular as men who had been in the gym, and played like men too. A couple of years later many were involved in winning the 2013 IRB Under 20 comp.
They have a clear pathway engineered by the (England) RU and the best will progress through higher levels as they get older, using the same systems as the senior team does.
It may not be all about the money, but we will probably never know because we won't be able to afford the multi-Academy system (in a small country geographically) that England has.
But I digress.
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At the same time as the Pom boys were in the gym or on the training paddock our lads (NSW at least) were studying for their HSC (mixed with their rugby stuff).
But it's not only the period since May that is relevant.
Had you seen the England U/18 lads in June 2011, they had just left school, yet their strength and conditioning was palpably superior to an Oz U/19 team they played, and, of course, the Oz Schools team, who looked like schoolboys.
These 2011 young Poms had already been involved with their club Academies for a couple of years before they left school—a similar situation to what our league boys are in.
They were as muscular as men who had been in the gym, and played like men too. A couple of years later many were involved in winning the 2013 IRB Under 20 comp.
They have a clear pathway engineered by the (England) RU and the best will progress through higher levels as they get older, using the same systems as the senior team does.
It may not be all about the money, but we will probably never know because we won't be able to afford the multi-Academy system (in a small country geographically) that England has.
But I digress.
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The Rock
Ward Prentice (10)
The problem is nowadays if you want to be Competitive in Sport you have to have the Strength and the Speed to go with it, which means plenty of Gym and Field Sessions, otherwise you will keep getting beaten, even at School Level. The Kids are a lot Bigger and more Polynesian Boys involved today. The Rugby here for the Schools and Clubs are still back in the Dinosaur Years.
Hits74
Frank Nicholson (4)
The boys can't be that far off with their conditioning and training they have all year round. By the looks of the games, it's clear that there is no aggression and domination by the forwards not allowing the backs the confidence in their attack. Penalties and mistakes don't help either. Harden up boys and smash them in the remainder. Good luck.
So what is the solution?
Send an Under 18 team to the NH to play Under 18's, including boys who left school 6-8 months earlier?
What date do they use in the NH to determine which age group a player is eligible for?
Down here we use 1 Jan. Consider the case of three boys born on 2 Jan 199x, 31 Dec 199x, and 31 Dec 199x-1.
The boys born in 199x were born 362 days apart but play in the same age group. The boy born on 2 Jan 199x is 3 days younger then the boy born on on 31 Dec 199x-1 yet they play in different age groups.
Send an Under 18 team to the NH to play Under 18's, including boys who left school 6-8 months earlier?
What date do they use in the NH to determine which age group a player is eligible for?
Down here we use 1 Jan. Consider the case of three boys born on 2 Jan 199x, 31 Dec 199x, and 31 Dec 199x-1.
The boys born in 199x were born 362 days apart but play in the same age group. The boy born on 2 Jan 199x is 3 days younger then the boy born on on 31 Dec 199x-1 yet they play in different age groups.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Malcolm Gladwell has written extensively about the impact this has.
In my understanding there is a fundamental difference between the UK and Australia.
Kids leaving school up there have a far greater number of spots in professional set ups open to them and many more professional playing opportunities than we have down here.
How many new school leavers are in the Tahs set up for 2014??
This "problem" is not about birth dates its about playing numbers and professional opportunities. On the basis of the Quins website some of the kids being played against have been in academy structures for 2 years.
WASPS site provides even more detail - "14 similar academies around the country" (a country that is not even half the size of Victoria!!!!!): http://www.wasps.co.uk/aboutacademy.ink
For domestic rugby the age grade of young England players is determined by their age at midnight on 31st August at the beginning of each season.
But at the U/17 and U/18 elite level, only, the player's age grade is determined by their age at midnight on 31st December.
Thus the England lads who played Oz Schools would have been classified as U/18 the same as our guys were. When their school year ended was irrelevant.
This puts the Pom lads in step with IRB classification of U/20s down the track.
I don't doubt that this is the same for other countries in Europe because it enables the core of their national elite youth teams to stay together for elite age-grade competitions against each other.
This culminates in the 6N U/20 competition from which the IRB U/20 squads are chosen.
What is the solution? The solution is to get games against U/18 players who are schoolboys, as the Leinster and Munster matches will be.
There is one problem with that—such a tour will not benefit the host unions who run the elite youth programmes.
To tack on something that is outside the scope of their annual U/17 and U/18 routines once every four years, adds no value to their programmes; so they won't provide such schoolboy opponents at the "test" level as they used to back in the day. Times have changed.
I can't see a real solution. We could scrap the schoolboys idea and send an U/18 team over whether they are schoolboys or not.
That idea is anathema to me, and since the boys who had left school already wouldn't have been attached to an Academy for a couple of years as the Poms lads were, anyway, it would scarcely make a difference.
I suppose that we could avoid countries that don't provide school teams. Since we did get schools games against Leinster and Munster, we should do some extra work get other "midweek" games, and some school test games even if they are in France or Italy, or in 2nd tier countries.
The ASRU has no leverage in these matters so the ARU should help them, although, truth be told, they would rather use the England system.
Surely something could be arranged a year in advance, in the back rooms, by our ARU officials when they attend IRB meetings.
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When you consider the fact that many of their opponents have had at least 6 months in a high calibre professional academy it is not surprising that they have an edge. There Is no doubt many of the Australian boys will benefit from 6 months training outside a school environment.
The test against Wales saw an intercept try, a penalty try (that surprised even the Welsh supporters) and a try through a gap left when a defender rushed up. The boys were in the England game with about 10 to go when a panicked pass saw England go almost the length of the field to score. The defence, and in particular the defensive work rate of the forwards has been very good.
Unfortunately the backs have not been able to penetrate and others in this thread have made observations that I will not repeat.
I'm sure the team will be disappointed with the results. I'm not sure that "harden up and smash them" is very helpful advice.
The test against Wales saw an intercept try, a penalty try (that surprised even the Welsh supporters) and a try through a gap left when a defender rushed up. The boys were in the England game with about 10 to go when a panicked pass saw England go almost the length of the field to score. The defence, and in particular the defensive work rate of the forwards has been very good.
Unfortunately the backs have not been able to penetrate and others in this thread have made observations that I will not repeat.
I'm sure the team will be disappointed with the results. I'm not sure that "harden up and smash them" is very helpful advice.
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