Brumbies 2011

[Lee Grant]

Oops naza has already answered that about Willie O. I was looking at the previous page only.

A shorter no 8 is not so much of a problem if you have a lineout 6 or even a taller 7 who can be lifted as the 3rd option. Thus if Rocky was at 6, happy days. Some 8s, like Harinordoquy, are lineout specialists but it's not the kiss of death at the Super level to be a shorter 8. Anyway - we've seen Phil Waugh lifted a few times as surprise value - probably by folks with long arms.

 

[Gnostic]

Oops naza has already answered that about Willie O. I was looking at the previous page only.

A shorter no 8 is not so much of a problem if you have a lineout 6 or even a taller 7 who can be lifted as the 3rd option. Thus if Rocky was at 6, happy days. Some 8s, like Harinordoquy, are lineout specialists but it's not the kiss of death at the Super level to be a shorter 8. Anyway - we've seen Phil Waugh lifted a few times as surprise value - probably by folks with long arms.

Yeah No worries I always thought Willie was 6'. 4" does make a difference I've been told.

In any event in the teams Willie was dominant in he was supported in the back row by very good lineout backrowers and locks. Gavin, Cockbain, McCall, Eales, Morgan.

My point is that with the right balance to the backrow the limitation of a short power player at 8 or 6 wouldn't be any great problem. I do not think we need go down the path the Saffers have with four genuine jumpers, it didn't really help them this year, they were no where near as dominant as they were in the past. Especially if trying to take this path compromises other aspects of play.

 

[Lee Grant]

When TPN was at school and alternating with Salvi at 6 and 8 for Oz Schools IIRR, I thought he would be a top S12 player as a no.8. People knew even then that he was going to be too short to be a lineout man, but I had the same thoughts then as I do now about short no.8s. Not being a lineout jumper was a reasonable price to pay to get his explosiveness and then, as now, teams usually had 6s who could do lineout work anyway.

Of course the Brumbies HPU of the time cross-trained him as a hooker and LHP.

Vaea is a similar player. Let's see how it pans out for him down there.

Not to the point, but if we worry so much about the height of lineout jumpers why don't we worry about the height of the lifters and how long their arms are? There's not a lot of info available to we punters about the wing span of lifters or liftees - nor the vertical jumping ability of the liftees. A spring heeled lad, to use Bruce's terminology, should have greater success as the lifters can get into position better under him to complete the lift cleaner - just as weight lifters have to get into position under the bar to do the same thing.

 

[Slim 293]

I think the Brumbies are in a position where it won't hurt them to play a no. 8 who isn't a jumper.

At the moment they have 4 jumpers with their two locks, Elsom and Hoiles.

I think as long as you have 3 proper jumpers then you're set. Even if Elsom goes down there's Chapman or Kimlin.

 

[lily]

I think Slim hit the nail on the head.

 

[TOCC]

you can get away with only 3 jumpers at SuperRugby level

 

[Lee Grant]

No team needs more than 3 on the park else there's nobody to lift them. All you need is two specialists and a third to use every now and then. It was always so and probably won't change.

 

[Bruce Ross]

No team needs more than 3 on the park else there's nobody to lift them. All you need is two specialists and a third to use every now and then. It was always so and probably won't change.

LG, I totally agree with your point that "All you need is two specialists and a third to use every now and then." However I don't follow the logic in your first sentence. There is no intrinsic reason why any of the seven players standing in the lineout shouldn't be capable of lifting the jumper. A player could be a jumper for one lineout call and a lifter for another, although what benefit you would get from this level of complexity is unclear.

 

[TOCC]

Ive seen one of the South African team have there two locks lift a third jumper... worked out ok

 

[Alex]

There are a lot of good reasons to have locks as lifters rather than jumpers. As jumpers - locks do not always have the best vertical jump and are usually big and take a lot of effort to lift. No disrespect to the locks out there - but they don't always have the best hands either. A big man is also not always the fastest to react on opposition throws. As a lifter, however, locks are usually tall and strong and can throw a lighter backrower up high and hold them with less effort than the reverse. McCaw and So'oialo have been used very effectively like this. Best lifter I ever had was a lock.

 

[BrumbiesPolynesian]

i think Friend will use Vaea in some form this season, maybe sooner than later. From all reports he has been working hard on his fitness during the first part of the pre season training, so only time will tell. He could be a "PALU" type player for the Brumbies....Maybe having Vaea at 8, Hoiles to 6 and Salvi or Faiagaa at 7.....if Elsom is out for first part of the season.....Thoughts

 

[en_force_er]

Maybe having Vaea at 8, Hoiles to 6 and Salvi or Faiagaa at 7.....if Elsom is out for first part of the season.....Thoughts

I just don't understand why he is at playing 8 when he is built like and plays like a 6.

 

[Slim 293]

i think Friend will use Vaea in some form this season, maybe sooner than later. From all reports he has been working hard on his fitness during the first part of the pre season training, so only time will tell. He could be a "PALU" type player for the Brumbies....Maybe having Vaea at 8, Hoiles to 6 and Salvi or Faiagaa at 7.....if Elsom is out for first part of the season.....Thoughts

Vaea is not in the senior squad and will only get a chance through injuries.

If Elsom goes down then Chapman will play blindside. He is by far the next best player in that position by some margin.

Hoiles is similar to Richard Brown in height/weight...

 

[Brumby Jack]

The Brumbies returned to training on Thursday and expected a short session to bring in the new year. Unfortunately for them, some of them must have still been on holiday mode and the skills session resulted in too many errors for Andy Friend's liking so he kept them on the park until they completed the drills to a satisfactory level - 2 and a half hours later.

Captain Stephen Hoiles is back in limited training but concedes that he could miss the opening rounds of 2011 due to being behind schedule in his rehab from surgery to correct achilles and back injuries. If this is the case, he may step down as captain.

 

[Slim 293]

The Brumbies returned to training on Thursday and expected a short session to bring in the new year. Unfortunately for them, some of them must have still been on holiday mode and the skills session resulted in too many errors for Andy Friend's liking so he kept them on the park until they completed the drills to a satisfactory level - 2 and a half hours later.

Captain Stephen Hoiles is back in limited training but concedes that he could miss the opening rounds of 2011 due to being behind schedule in his rehab from surgery to correct achilles and back injuries. If this is the case, he may step down as captain.

Yes please.

OK, so let's put out the question.

Who would/should be the next Brumbies' captain?

Generally you would want to implement someone who was going to be there for a while but being a RWC year it might be best to put someone in for the year and choose a long term captain next year. Or maybe even promote someone as captain as a way of keeping them on for longer.

And it has to be a guaranteed starter.

My vote would be for Moore. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) as vice captain.

Although Elsom is already Wallaby captain... but he might be crocked as well.

And don't want Giteau with a c next to his name.

 

[en_force_er]

I think Moore would be a terrific captain.

 

[RugbyReg]

I think a Moore AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) combo would be fantastic.

 

[Wallaby Way]

I have the feeling that Vaea and another backrower (Parahi?) will play a fair bit of S15 given the pre-season injuries to Kimlan, Elsom and Hollis.

 

[Lee Grant]

Vaea is not in the senior squad and will only get a chance through injuries.

This is usually true. There used to be a protocol that squads should have only so many contracted players but that they could use players outside the squad if there was a long term injury. The intent was to deter Super teams from warehousing players in in too large squads. This gave other teams a better chance to acquire quality fringe players and it also enforced financial prudence.


This was tied up with the RUPA agreement and IIRR this terminated in 2008 and has not been renewed. Rugby journalists like Rupert McGuiness have mentioned that there is still a limit to the number of contracted players in a squad but I'd like to see that in some official communication as it seems like Rafferty's rules prevail. According to Noddy's sticky one team has 35 contracted players and another has 29. One can always have fewer but 35 seems too high.


I have perchance digressed. Teams are going outside of those old protocols now. For example: Tahs lock Kane Douglas was used from the bench in the first game of the 2010 S14. He was an academy player and contracted players Thomson and Roodt were not injured IIRR but were ignored on form. Douglas started in all the other 13 games whereas Thompson and Roodt had only 4 games from the bench between them for the whole season. Another Junior Waratah, Patrick McCutcheon had 3 run-on games for the Tahs when Alcock could have been used, and even Lochie McCaffrey got some minutes in one game when contracted Tahs were available.


There would be similar stories in other Super teams; so if Vaea has good form in the trials or later for the Runners, and others don't, or they stumble during the tournament, he could find himself on the park in 2011.


But this all supposes that Vaea is in the next tier. There have been a few posts in this thread about who is in the next tier of players or the 2nd tier but as usual the Brumbies are slow out of the blocks on their web site. Makes a few calls Brumbies fans - give them hell.

 

[en_force_er]

I have the feeling that Vaea and another backrower (Parahi?) will play a fair bit of S15 given the pre-season injuries to Kimlan, Elsom and Hollis.

Combined with a longer season.