Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Quick Hands]

Rugby isn't compulsory at these schools, sport is. The schools don't care if they play rugby or soccer. The schools don't necessarily have the best coaching in the world, not every teacher aspires to coach a super rugby side. Much of their development comes from club rugby, where parents are involved. When the option of club rugby is removed many of these kids will move to soccer or AFL where they will be welcomed, they won't be playing school rugby either.

I'm not sure that I follow what your point is, but I'll make these points:

Are you seriously suggesting that boys who play club rugby and school rugby are going to play soccer if they no longer have the privilege of playing 2 games a week? Guess what, they won't be able to play 2 games of soccer a week, because the games will both be on Saturdays!

While most teachers don't aspire to be super rugby coaches, neither to most junior club coaches.

At least the teacher coaches are coaching every year and are at least up to date with modern techniques. Many club coaches are dads who haven't had any contact with the game for 10 or 15 years.

Quite frankly, I'd prefer a teacher who has a reasonable knowledge of the game and has access to fantastic support and facilities and has no vested interest in who is selected to the rampant nepotism and assorted shenanigans which results from parents coaching and selecting their own children.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I've been arguing this for years. But rugby has become obsessed with private schools to the point were apparently it's more important for some boys to have 2 games a week than it for more boys to play.

And then around State Champs times +/- a month, these boys are playing and training for District teams in trials (and at Under 16 level) Regional SJRU Selection and School Association Team Training and Games almost doubling/tripling the Games per week coefficient.

Then the players and parents complain that there is too much rugby being played. Regular competition games get forfeited, yada, yada, yada, kids get burnt out trying to please helicopter parents, something something vicious circle something downward spiral something.

 

[Quick Hands]

Oops, forgot about Liverpool. They have a small Junior presence of ~ 20 - 30 players. Pretty sure they do not have a subbies club at the moment. I have seen instances where the Juniors and Seniors essentially won't talk to each other through some long lost animosity of some description. I believe there is a huge amount of benefit that can be forthcoming to both the Junior club and the Senior club if they work together, but it happens very rarely.

Forest is a good example of where subbies and junior work well together. I'm sure there are others.

Junior club rugby will never be as succesful as it should until it is weaned off its private school dependence.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

 

[loiterer]

I'm completely confused. He's gone from arguing participation and is now arguing coaching qualifications. I'm not really sure what his point is either.

The point I was making was that denying kids at private schools the ability to compete in the Sydney club competition will lead to many of those kids not playing rugby at all. The schools by and large do not have the resources to train those kids who are not superstars to an adequate level to play well enough to enjoy the game. At my sons school many of the non club players have moved from rugby to soccer. Much of this thread seems to have been driven by animosity to a particular team from Chatswood.

 

[Quick Hands]

The point I was making was that denying kids at private schools the ability to compete in the Sydney club competition will lead to many of those kids not playing rugby at all. The schools by and large do not have the resources to train those kids who are not superstars to an adequate level to play well enough to enjoy the game. At my sons school many of the non club players have moved from rugby to soccer. Much of this thread seems to have been driven by animosity to a particular team from Chatswood.

Really? These schools have more resources to train their players than any club. How many clubs do you know go down to Js or Ks in an age group?

A particular team from Chatswood is not the issue - but it provides an example of what this situation has led to. I think you'll find that this thread had been going a while before the Chatswood 16s hove into view.

I'd suggest that if boys are moving from rugby to soccer, there's more to it than as you describe.

 

[Brainstrust]

The problem just isn't as black and white as some would make it. Firstly it's a tedious argument that shifting the game to Saturday from Sunday will solve anything, it won't. Many factors have reduced junior numbers in the last 10 years. AFL has attracted a massive amount of potential junior rugby players, I know plenty of ok players and a few quality players that now play afl. League offers a very professional pathway into a much bigger domestically professional structure ( 16 clubs? V 5 super clubs) and they can pretty much map out when a kid will play what and how much they will earn, rugby is so far behind in this respect for those that want to play professionally choose league. For these reasons thank god a few kids are keen to play 2 games, otherwise the fame would be shot. The challenge is how to attract the kids in to the 12's and 13's that may look at other sports? If you can get a good chunk of these boys then you only need to keep 50-60% and the game will be in better shape. Over the years junior rugby has experienced a spike in numbers when the Wallabies have been successful, and that was some time ago.

 

[Quick Hands]

The problem just isn't as black and white as some would make it. Firstly it's a tedious argument that shifting the game to Saturday from Sunday will solve anything, it won't. Many factors have reduced junior numbers in the last 10 years. AFL has attracted a massive amount of potential junior rugby players, I know plenty of ok players and a few quality players that now play afl. League offers a very professional pathway into a much bigger domestically professional structure ( 16 clubs? V 5 super clubs) and they can pretty much map out when a kid will play what and how much they will earn, rugby is so far behind in this respect for those that want to play professionally choose league. For these reasons thank god a few kids are keen to play 2 games, otherwise the fame would be shot. The challenge is how to attract the kids in to the 12's and 13's that may look at other sports? If you can get a good chunk of these boys then you only need to keep 50-60% and the game will be in better shape. Over the years junior rugby has experienced a spike in numbers when the Wallabies have been successful, and that was some time ago.

No-one said it was simple or black and white.

Sunday rugby is but one factor.

There is a challenge attracting 12 and 13 year olds. You'd be surprised at the effort people will put in when they lose 7 players to a private school and have to find 7 more kids to have a team.

 

[loiterer]

The problem just isn't as black and white as some would make it. Firstly it's a tedious argument that shifting the game to Saturday from Sunday will solve anything, it won't. Many factors have reduced junior numbers in the last 10 years. AFL has attracted a massive amount of potential junior rugby players, I know plenty of ok players and a few quality players that now play afl. League offers a very professional pathway into a much bigger domestically professional structure ( 16 clubs? V 5 super clubs) and they can pretty much map out when a kid will play what and how much they will earn, rugby is so far behind in this respect for those that want to play professionally choose league. For these reasons thank god a few kids are keen to play 2 games, otherwise the fame would be shot. The challenge is how to attract the kids in to the 12's and 13's that may look at other sports? If you can get a good chunk of these boys then you only need to keep 50-60% and the game will be in better shape. Over the years junior rugby has experienced a spike in numbers when the Wallabies have been successful, and that was some time ago.

Thank you, you have made my points much more eloquently than I could.

 

[Quick Hands]

Thank you, you have made my points much more eloquently than I could.

But all the issues he talks about are occurring now when junior club rugby is played on a Sunday. How do they aid your point of view? Maybe some of the boys playing AFL are doing so because they don't want to play on a Sunday!

EDIT: CLub AFL is played on a Saturday - it's on the ground next door where my daughter plays hockey. If their numbers are growing at the expense of club rugby, it sort of kills the argument that Sunday club rugby is our saviour doesn't it?

 

[loiterer]

Really? These schools have more resources to train their players than any club. How many clubs do you know go down to Js or Ks in an age group?

How many schools do now days?

 

[loiterer]

But all the issues he talks about are occurring now when junior club rugby is played on a Sunday. How do they aid your point of view? Maybe some of the boys playing AFL are doing so because they don't want to play on a Sunday!

EDIT: CLub AFL is played on a Saturday - it's on the ground next door where my daughter plays hockey. If their numbers are growing at the expense of club rugby, it sort of kills the argument that Sunday club rugby is our saviour doesn't it?

Really? So there are NO AFL GAMES on Sunday? But I feel much more confident about Rugby's future having discovered that AFL is only played on one ground in Sydney.

 

[loiterer]

I'm not sure that I follow what your point is, but I'll make these points:

Are you seriously suggesting that boys who play club rugby and school rugby are going to play soccer if they no longer have the privilege of playing 2 games a week? Guess what, they won't be able to play 2 games of soccer a week, because the games will both be on Saturdays!

The school games tend to be in the morning and the club games in the afternoons and they manage to fit their rep games in as well.
My son probably won't move to soccer as he is a crap actor and can't do death scenes.

 

[Quick Hands]

Really? So there are NO AFL GAMES on Sunday? But I feel much more confident about Rugby's future having discovered that AFL is only played on one ground in Sydney.

Where did you discover that AFL is only played on one ground? As I never said that, I assume you obtained your information from somewhere else. My understanding is that junior club AFL play on quite a few grounds on Saturdays in winter. The fact that you're coming up with comments like that suggests you have not much of an argument.

 

[Quick Hands]

The school games tend to be in the morning and the club games in the afternoons and they manage to fit their rep games in as well.
My son probably won't move to soccer as he is a crap actor and can't do death scenes.

So soccer play their club games on a Saturday, league play their club games on a Saturday, AFL play their club games on a Saturday and they all seem to be going ok, but if rugby plays junior club rugby on a Saturday in won't work? Strange logic.

 

[Quick Hands]

How many schools do now days?

3 or 4. How many clubs go down that far?

 

[loiterer]

Where did you discover that AFL is only played on one ground? As I never said that, I assume you obtained your information from somewhere else. My understanding is that junior club AFL play on quite a few grounds on Saturdays in winter. The fact that you're coming up with comments like that suggests you have not much of an argument.

I discovered it from your post. But anecdotally its played on Sundays in Sydney and when I googled my local club, they seemed to play all their games on Sunday as well. Possibly AFL is played on both days.

 

[loiterer]

3 or 4. How many clubs go down that far?

That would appear to be a rather small competition.
But the G,H,I,J,Ks at many traditional rugby schools are now days euphemistically referred to as the "football" teams.

 

[Brainstrust]

So soccer play their club games on a Saturday, league play their club games on a Saturday, AFL play their club games on a Saturday and they all seem to be going ok, but if rugby plays junior club rugby on a Saturday in won't work? Strange logic.

Well it seems that the only solution to save junior club rugby is you get yourself onto SJRU, convince them that your solution and vision is the only way forward and lets see what you get. At least everyone will get their Sundays back, you will have successfully disenfranchised the private school toffs who actually do play and love the game, and we can all rejoice in your success.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

^^^^
I think the point is that since those toffs get a game if they want one the club side of the sport should be trying to provide rugby between the ages of 13 and 18 to kids who do not have access to rugby through school.
Framing the comps as is presently done does nothing except entrench the private school dominance in both school and club rugby.
That's the argument, anyway. The evidence seems to support it, IMO.

 

[Quick Hands]

I discovered it from your post.

If you discovered that from my post, I think you need to take English language lessons.