Cricket Summer 2023-24

[Sword of Justice]

All good points but I do think the Smith to open and Green to middle order has a lot of question marks. Obviously a lot of upside if it works but what say:
- Smith goes great at opener and beds down that spot and Green goes poorly - who then comes into the middle order?
- Smith goes terribly at opener and Green does well enough (an average of 40 odd for example) - do we just stick with that?
- they both do terribly - assume we just pretend it never happened and revert back to Smith at 4?

Ultimately I’m happy enough with Smith at opener to try it, especially against WI B team but on the other hand the pathway through to test cricket needs encouragement and that could crush more than a couple of players who could piss off and earn a lot more doing other things in cricket and not.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

We have always had players on the periphery though that have been at Test standard and perceived as hard done by for long periods of time.

I worry we are going to batter this West Indies side in 3 days and learn nothing in reality.

NZ will be a much better challenge and could be the last time most of them play against Aus since their players are aged similarly.

 

[Sword of Justice]

That’s actually more my point, other than Bancroft and maybe Hardie as all rounder we don’t have that many people knocking on the door at all. There are so many good players who’ve elected to not play red ball any more.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Who's done that in Aus so far? I know Tim David has gone that route but I think it's a good decision for him. Would be a shame but I could see a guy like Jhye Richardson doing it soon enough. He was at least in the past a Test standard bowler.

In recent interviews guys like Fraser-McGurk, Davies have said they want to play Test cricket. I know this is likely to be challenged when the agent gets offers but I think we look after the Test players pretty well by leaving the IPL window open so they can go.

Will Pucovski is the guy they must hope can get back to it. Hasnt had a great season so far but for him playing consistently is a big step in the right direction. Only 25 so plenty of time.

 

[Agent]

Hardie definitely looks to be a test player of the future. He can genuinely bat in the middle order and his bowling is more than handy.

Mitch Marsh is 32. Another 2 or 3 summers might see him through to retirement and Hardie would be an excellent like for like replacement.

 

[Sword of Justice]

Older players like Maxwell, Kane Richardson, Chris Lynn, Dan Christian stopped playing red ball in the mid-point of their careers basically. Even Stoinis and Wade have barely played Shield in the latter parts of their careers. Some of those guys got opportunities and some didn’t but it’s about the health of the longer format overall.

The Bulls are currently not playing Kuhnemann in the Shield so that they can focus Swepson in that format which seems crazy to me given K did well in India.

BBL franchises are full of players in their late 20s and 30s who may or may not have been good enough for the Shield or 2nd XI squads but them not pushing for that continues to weaken the depth we have right now.

I think it’d be a difficult sell to convince good young players to avoid white ball cricket. Maybe they don’t need to but I can see the overall standard dropping in test cricket as time goes on and I would argue that it has when considering the series we just had, the RSA series last year and the fact that RSA and Windies aren’t even sending their best players on tour. Being the captain of Proteas used to be a huge deal and now debutants get a gig.

 

[Sword of Justice]

Anyway that’s off on a tangent and it’s not a reason to select a worse player in a team obviously but I think Bancroft getting first bite has almost as much upside with significantly less downside. If they don’t like the guy it’ll be hard to make a case for disrupting their squad given how successful they are right now but that’s a matter I have no real knowledge of.

I can see Smith and Green absolutely crushing it this year as a high likelihood so I guess it’s just weighing the balance of perceived probability for the selectors.

 

[Braveheart81]

Older players like Maxwell, Kane Richardson, Chris Lynn, Dan Christian stopped playing red ball in the mid-point of their careers basically. Even Stoinis and Wade have barely played Shield in the latter parts of their careers. Some of those guys got opportunities and some didn’t but it’s about the health of the longer format overall.

The Bulls are currently not playing Kuhnemann in the Shield so that they can focus Swepson in that format which seems crazy to me given K did well in India.

BBL franchises are full of players in their late 20s and 30s who may or may not have been good enough for the Shield or 2nd XI squads but them not pushing for that continues to weaken the depth we have right now.

I think it’d be a difficult sell to convince good young players to avoid white ball cricket. Maybe they don’t need to but I can see the overall standard dropping in test cricket as time goes on and I would argue that it has when considering the series we just had, the RSA series last year and the fact that RSA and Windies aren’t even sending their best players on tour. Being the captain of Proteas used to be a huge deal and now debutants get a gig.

For someone like Maxwell I would say it's a scheduling thing more than anything. He played red ball cricket for Warwickshire in 2023.

In Australia our current schedule generally has international ODI/T20 players miss the first half of the Shield season because we've got games on somewhere then it's BBL only through our test Summer and then the last few Shield games generally go up against some sort of international tour.

I agree that players like Lynn and Christian became white ball specialists who travelled round the world in the latter part of their careers for every tournament possible but they're definitely the exception.

In terms of Kuhnemann surely that's just an issue of Queensland having two good spinners and it being hard to pick both for most games.

Australia pays Shield players very well relatively and the season doesn't conflict with a lot of the overseas T20 tournaments so those that have the offers can do both. It's really just the international white ball players that have very little opportunity to play red ball cricket.

 

[Sword of Justice]

Australia is definitely one of about two countries that can say they still take first class seriously I agree but when good players elect to play totally meaningless ODIs in Bangladesh instead of Shield cricket I think there’s more that could be done and selecting players who actually back up for the Shield where possible is one such thing.

On Swepson, yep it’s obviously hard to select two spinners at most Aus grounds. Bulls could share the load however have seemingly pigeon holed Kuhnemann as a white ball player only for at least the medium term. If I’m Kuhnemann I’m out of that set up ASAP. It’s obviously up to him.

Back to the Aus squad, I’m not sure what Green has done to say that he’s definitely in the best 6 batsmen at this level, though I think on raw talent it’s obvious he is. He’s hardly played cricket lately which is a problem. It’s a gamble and I hope it pays off. I can see the pressure of all this attention getting to him. As the Grade Cricketer said on their podcast yesterday it would probably be best for him to get some neck tattoos and shave his head to at least fake some confidence.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

There is likely going to be nothing else to talk about in commentary making it worse.

Some serious scribbling going on to think of things to say about some of these WI players. All the terms like "compact stance", "strong bottom hand" and "looks likely" are going to be abused in these matches as we have nothing on most of them.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Actually, we'll probably see more highlights of the WI of the past than the current side live.

 

[Braveheart81]

Australia is definitely one of about two countries that can say they still take first class seriously I agree but when good players elect to play totally meaningless ODIs in Bangladesh instead of Shield cricket I think there’s more that could be done and selecting players who actually back up for the Shield where possible is one such thing.

I don't think there is a universe where any player avoids playing ODI or T20 cricket for Australia to play Shield cricket. They get paid a lot to play for Australia and I'd be surprised if contractually they can make themselves unavailable for international duties and keep playing domestic cricket.

 

[Braveheart81]

No surprises in the test squad.

Seems like we'll have an XI of:

Smith
Khawaja
Labuschagne
Green
Head
Marsh
Carey
Cummins
Starc
Hazlewood
Lyon

 

[Sword of Justice]

I don't think there is a universe where any player avoids playing ODI or T20 cricket for Australia to play Shield cricket. They get paid a lot to play for Australia and I'd be surprised if contractually they can make themselves unavailable for international duties and keep playing domestic cricket.

Sure and that’s just an anecdote to support my understanding of the current situation whereby really good players are heavily incentivised to make a career out of matches that no one cares about. presently, the rare white ball games that are important the test team just gets selected for the most part in their place.

I don’t understand why that incentive is there and I can only see the shield getting weaker and weaker which will in turn make our test team weaker; although possibly not in relative terms when comparing against other countries.

This is now two parallel discussions about Green’s confidence and the state of the game in Australia but my original point is that I don’t think that this specific selection has taken into account all of the value of traditional pathways and what Bancroft has done in comparison to Green who hasn’t been served very well by the structures recently. I publicly concede that the Aus selectors know more about everything than I do, of course. We are also in a very privileged position at the top of the tree in all formats recently and that shouldn’t be forgotten either but I hope Aus cricket doesn’t take the foot off the gas and maintains its leadership position in maintaining the best traditions of the sport.

 

[cyclopath]

Not going full tin foil hat and I know it’s negative outlook but ignorance is bliss.

They all apparently had no idea at the time…

Weird that guys like me playing Shires cricket took more interest in what was happening to the ball (although it only reversed if you mistakenly held it the wrong way!).

 

[Brumby Runner]

Sure and that’s just an anecdote to support my understanding of the current situation whereby really good players are heavily incentivised to make a career out of matches that no one cares about. presently, the rare white ball games that are important the test team just gets selected for the most part in their place.

I don’t understand why that incentive is there and I can only see the shield getting weaker and weaker which will in turn make our test team weaker; although possibly not in relative terms when comparing against other countries.

This is now two parallel discussions about Green’s confidence and the state of the game in Australia but my original point is that I don’t think that this specific selection has taken into account all of the value of traditional pathways and what Bancroft has done in comparison to Green who hasn’t been served very well by the structures recently. I publicly concede that the Aus selectors know more about everything than I do, of course. We are also in a very privileged position at the top of the tree in all formats recently and that shouldn’t be forgotten either but I hope Aus cricket doesn’t take the foot off the gas and maintains its leadership position in maintaining the best traditions of the sport.

Are they traditional pathways, or even customary in the modern age?

From today's Canberra Times, some interesting facts about where our openers have come from:

Usman Khawaja : before opening average of 39.41, opening average 57,4;
Shane Watson : boa 19.75, oa 40.98;
Simon Katich : boa 36.0, oa 50.48;
Greg Blewett : boa 35.7, oa 29.4;
Justin Langer : boa 39.04, oa 48.22;
David Boon : boa 23.94, oa 45.06;
Keith Stackpole : boa 25.28, oa 40.5;
Bob Simpson : boa 25.28, oa 55.11.

Most of them seemed to benefit from a move to the top of the order.

 

[Sword of Justice]

Are they traditional pathways, or even customary in the modern age?

From today's Canberra Times, some interesting facts about where our openers have come from:

Usman Khawaja : before opening average of 39.41, opening average 57,4;
Shane Watson : boa 19.75, oa 40.98;
Simon Katich : boa 36.0, oa 50.48;
Greg Blewett : boa 35.7, oa 29.4;
Justin Langer : boa 39.04, oa 48.22;
David Boon : boa 23.94, oa 45.06;
Keith Stackpole : boa 25.28, oa 40.5;
Bob Simpson : boa 25.28, oa 55.11.

Most of them seemed to benefit from a move to the top of the order.

To be clear, I can see Smith dominating there. It’s ancillary stuff I’m more worried about. Anyway, it’s done. There’s obviously a lot of history there on the pitch and off so these decisions are made with much more context than we have.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Is there really any benefit to being a specialist batter now position wise? Warner could only play Opener in Teat cricket due to his style but otherwise it seems the days of a Chris Rogers type are done.

Matt Renshaw has benefited massively from playing other spots since he always seems shaky. He’s also done well in the Aus A games and can be thrown the ball if necessary for a couple of overs of Off Spin.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Are they traditional pathways, or even customary in the modern age?

From today's Canberra Times, some interesting facts about where our openers have come from:

Usman Khawaja : before opening average of 39.41, opening average 57,4;
Shane Watson : boa 19.75, oa 40.98;
Simon Katich : boa 36.0, oa 50.48;
Greg Blewett : boa 35.7, oa 29.4;
Justin Langer : boa 39.04, oa 48.22;
David Boon : boa 23.94, oa 45.06;
Keith Stackpole : boa 25.28, oa 40.5;
Bob Simpson : boa 25.28, oa 55.11.

Most of them seemed to benefit from a move to the top of the order.

What would be even more interesting would be a list of all openers who have batted in another position since, say, 1980. Should be a big enough sample.

 

[RugbyReg]

What would be even more interesting would be a list of all openers who have batted in another position since, say, 1980. Should be a big enough sample.

Do you mean Aussie Test openers who then went down the order?