Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[Quick Hands]

The

So you don't disagree however because it's not common practice in league or afl it's not a good idea ??? Yep do the same as everyone else I am sure you will increase market share. Not.

I do disagree with your premise. I'm simply asking you to provide evidence from any other sport which operates in this way. I didn't mention league by the way, you did.

Seeing that you need detailed explanation, I'll give it to you.

Most students play the sports at school that they play on the weekend for their club. If someone has been playing a sport since they were six, then it's a slim chance that they will suddenly change when they get to high school.

There are over 2,000 state schools in NSW. The high schools play interschool sport at 1pm on Wednesday afternoons. The primary schools play their interschool sport on Friday afternoons at 1pm. In most cases, the only people who are able to coach and manage these sports are the teachers at the school. And you can only play interschool sport in a particular sport if a significant majority of the other schools in your zone are willing and able to field the appropriate number of teams in that sport - otherwise it doesn't happen. In most zones, the sports that they play are already well established. Some zones used to play rugby, but as player numbers dropped and the number of teachers who were willing and able to coach the sport decreased it was dropped. You'll find that most state school zones now have league, soccer and touch as their winter interschool sports. These are the sports that most of the kids play for their clubs on the weekend and the sports that their teachers are comfortable with. They aren't going to bring rugby in because we think that they should. The ARU and/or NSWRU would need very deep resources to fund any change - and change would in at least some cases be resisted.

You'll note however, that none of these sports run their sport through the school system. They run their sport through their own club system, over which they have complete control. That their sports are played in state schools is simply a reflection of their popularity in club land.

Primary schools should be a fertile area for introducing players to the game, but this needs to be connected to local clubs or it's a waste of resources.

In terms of high schools, as I alluded to previously, the number of players and the number of schools who play rugby as school sport is reflective of the number of students who play the sport on weekends with their club. The way to increase the number of people playing rugby in the state school system is to have more boys and girls playing the game at primary age in club land.

Another point that you need to remember is that teachers at state schools are under no obligation to coach or manage any activity after the school day finishes. The opposite is true in the private system often it is a condition of employment that teachers coach/manage after school or on weekends.

The demise of rugby in state schools in NSW is nothing more than an indicator of how much of a decline that there has been in junior player numbers. With the lack of suitable teacher coaches another factor.

You want to fix rugby in the state system? Get more junior clubs and more juniors playing in areas where the game once was, but has now almost disappeared and get clubs going in areas where rugby has never been played.

With respect, your idea of a school led recovery is based on private school modelling and doesn't take into account the realities of life in the state school system.

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't see how this will work in the short to medium term? "Pleb" public schools regularly forfeit to sport high schools in the Waratah shield (for the most part it's justified as they usually get demolished) how would these schools go against private schools? It boarder lines duty of care with the training programs the private schools have. Even the sport high schools get thumped on the odd Occassion they play private schools

4 schools entered the Waratah Shield in 2016 - 2 x ISA schools and 2 x state sports high schools. The final was between the 2 ISA schools.

 

[southsider]

It certainly would be a difficult task, but with thought, community commitment and a few resources something along these lines is a step in the right direction. Quite frankly, if rugby wants to avoid becoming a kind of glorified Quidditch in Australia, hard decisions have to be made. The elite comps will continue, the proposal is simply to coordinate opportunities for rugby to be more inclusive when the biggies are not playing each other in meaningful competition.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting the local suburban high school with zero rugby pedigree fronts up against Joeys. The general idea would be to set up a tiered competition where the strongest schools are seeded and others qualify to play them before the thing becomes an across the board knockout comp. You'd have a majority of GPS V CAS and ISA clashes but it would also be a pathway for other committed programs to test their mettle, not just government schools, but maybe junior clubs and regional catholic schools too. For many years the CHS was on a par with GPS -- that's not the case anymore and things won't change overnight, but some of us were familiar with the Matraville High School side of 1977 for example. That's a long time ago, but the talent to replicate that sort of top tier school/club side outside the elite privates is there (usually playing league). Places like St Greg's and St Augustines have cross coders and at full strength, their XVs can threaten many elite schools (in Auggies case all elite schools). It requires innovation and breaking down a few walls --The big privates can just keep playing each other but senior Australian rugby will be forced to import more and more Kiwis, Saffers and others just to be competitive and the support base will be restricted to old boys and expats.
I'm not especially wedded to this specific concept, but I do know they have to start looking outward, rather than peering inward as they have pretty much for a century.

I just don't see it happening mate, what you'd end up with is 2 divisions. Div 1 will be GPS and CAS then the other would be ISA, sport high schools and public schools. Unless you split it into 3 divisions then it's even more useless cause those type of fixtures are already being played at the moment.

It's also hard because Waratah shield is a weekday tournament, GPS and CAS schools aren't allowed time off during the week. Hard to involve clubs too as often many players would come from either private schools or sport high schools and would be required to front for them.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I do disagree with your premise. I'm simply asking you to provide evidence from any other sport which operates in this way. I didn't mention league by the way, you did.

Seeing that you need detailed explanation, I'll give it to you.

Most students play the sports at school that they play on the weekend for their club. If someone has been playing a sport since they were six, then it's a slim chance that they will suddenly change when they get to high school.

There are over 2,000 state schools in NSW. The high schools play interschool sport at 1pm on Wednesday afternoons. The primary schools play their interschool sport on Friday afternoons at 1pm. In most cases, the only people who are able to coach and manage these sports are the teachers at the school. And you can only play interschool sport in a particular sport if a significant majority of the other schools in your zone are willing and able to field the appropriate number of teams in that sport - otherwise it doesn't happen. In most zones, the sports that they play are already well established. Some zones used to play rugby, but as player numbers dropped and the number of teachers who were willing and able to coach the sport decreased it was dropped. You'll find that most state school zones now have league, soccer and touch as their winter interschool sports. These are the sports that most of the kids play for their clubs on the weekend and the sports that their teachers are comfortable with. They aren't going to bring rugby in because we think that they should. The ARU and/or NSWRU would need very deep resources to fund any change - and change would in at least some cases be resisted.

You'll note however, that none of these sports run their sport through the school system. They run their sport through their own club system, over which they have complete control. That their sports are played in state schools is simply a reflection of their popularity in club land.

Primary schools should be a fertile area for introducing players to the game, but this needs to be connected to local clubs or it's a waste of resources.

In terms of high schools, as I alluded to previously, the number of players and the number of schools who play rugby as school sport is reflective of the number of students who play the sport on weekends with their club. The way to increase the number of people playing rugby in the state school system is to have more boys and girls playing the game at primary age in club land.

Another point that you need to remember is that teachers at state schools are under no obligation to coach or manage any activity after the school day finishes. The opposite is true in the private system often it is a condition of employment that teachers coach/manage after school or on weekends.

The demise of rugby in state schools in NSW is nothing more than an indicator of how much of a decline that there has been in junior player numbers. With the lack of suitable teacher coaches another factor.

You want to fix rugby in the state system? Get more junior clubs and more juniors playing in areas where the game once was, but has now almost disappeared and get clubs going in areas where rugby has never been played.

With respect, your idea of a school led recovery is based on private school modelling and doesn't take into account the realities of life in the state school system.

Just for context - back in the day what was the geographical extent of union in primary schools?

Was it a northern Sydney thing or bigger than that? Country areas?

I'm pretty sure union has never been played in Queensland state schools, and presumably not around the rest of the country either.

Looking at the stats that the ARU published until 2012, which appear to be based on some kind of reality, there had been respective growth in player numbers across the country, with the exception of juniors and seniors in the NSWRU.

Now that's probably a combination of saturation, but also the other issues raised throughout this thread

 

[Dave Beat]

Strewth I know back in the 80's there was a number of high schools with 2 teams per age group, and a number of teams wanted to play in the Waratah Shield.
It is very true - teachers in the high school need to coach, for the teams to play, and they dont get paid.

Q if there are players out there playing club, but their school doesnt play. These players are already covered under ARU rugby insurance right?

• So can these players there for pay a subsidised registration through the school and this helps fund the teachers costs.
• To assist with this structure the Shute Shield clubs could have players involved at certain stages through the season to help

 

[Strewthcobber]

Strewth I know back in the 80's there was a number of high schools with 2 teams per age group, and a number of teams wanted to play in the Waratah Shield.
It is very true - teachers in the high school need to coach, for the teams to play, and they dont get paid.

Q if there are players out there playing club, but their school doesnt play. These players are already covered under ARU rugby insurance right?

• So can these players there for pay a subsidised registration through the school and this helps fund the teachers costs.
• To assist with this structure the Shute Shield clubs could have players involved at certain stages through the season to help

The ARU insurance only covers "club rugby" Dave, and specifically excludes schools and school activities.

Up to schools to have insurance in place for any sport or activity that they sanction/permit/allow

 

[Harv]

I just don't see it happening mate, what you'd end up with is 2 divisions. Div 1 will be GPS and CAS then the other would be ISA, sport high schools and public schools. Unless you split it into 3 divisions then it's even more useless cause those type of fixtures are already being played at the moment.

It's also hard because Waratah shield is a weekday tournament, GPS and CAS schools aren't allowed time off during the week. Hard to involve clubs too as often many players would come from either private schools or sport high schools and would be required to front for them.

I share your pessimism and agree anything too ambitious won't get off the ground, but the point stands, they have to start being inclusive -- provide opportunities for the game to grow outside the walls of the fine institutions that have, and hopefully will always have a great rugby tradition. I don't want to get stuck trying to defend the virtues of any one vague comp proposal, my primary idea is to simply request they open the door to meaningful competition across boundaries. The Waratah Shield model obviously isn't perfect -- it failed (arguably, in part, because of the lack of commitment from the big schools) but it's a reference point as it used to work to an extent -- how do we improve on that effort?
It couldn't be a mid-week comp and it wouldn't be conventional -- it's effectively massaging the current "trial" process involving mainly GPS, CAS and ISA teams (the seeded teams) to make those matches 'mean' something, then adding an opportunity for 'others' to become involved (via a qualification process).
Headache inducing? Sure. Unlikely to get the backing of big private schools? Oh yeah.. But this is where we are.
When the GPS and CAS made noises about accommodating "new" competition this year, I thought they might have figured out a way of interacting with the real world. But, no. GPS cut back to one round (again) and they would continue to 'trial' against CAS and a couple of ISA schools (I apologise I don't have a grasp of the comps in other states).
Maybe Sevens and women's rugby will save the game in Oz. It's shaping like that. I like Sevens, I love rugby.

 

[Harv]

Just for context - back in the day what was the geographical extent of union in primary schools?

Was it a northern Sydney thing or bigger than that? Country areas?

I'm pretty sure union has never been played in Queensland state schools, and presumably not around the rest of the country either.

Looking at the stats that the ARU published until 2012, which appear to be based on some kind of reality, there had been respective growth in player numbers across the country, with the exception of juniors and seniors in the NSWRU.

Now that's probably a combination of saturation, but also the other issues raised throughout this thread

There was certainly a much stronger club system for union juniors across the board for several decades, (and bus club footy was healthy) although the game's nexus has always been the rah-rah schools. League was predominately a district process but midweek (MCC and MCC comps) and state "knockouts" (weight based for many years) provided opportunities for school teams. The great stroke of genius for schoolboy league was the midweek, televised comp, the Commonwealth Bank Cup. Union was played in some government schools but largely on a tournament to tournament basis. However, gov't schools such as North Sydney Boys, Homebush High, Matraville, and Randwick were consistently excellent over many years.

 

[half]

^^^^^

Quick, if I may refer you to your excellent post above 1381, where you explained the lack of local park teams, and teachers able and willing to coach.

The premise of your post is we are in a downward spiral and essentially fucked as their is nothing we can do.

I refer you back to my posts of 1374, 1375, 1376, in particular 1374.

Maybe I over did it with the links but my wife has told me about this often and asks why does rugby not do the same thing.

Quick and others you need to understand what FFA have done, its IMO the cleverest thing a governing body has done in a few years and we can all see its outcomes before our very eyes.

This link explains it all, but just to clarify what FFA have done and we should spend like they must have a lot to do this.

FFA developed teaching Football by teachers into the Australian primary school curriculum.

Further they mapped it against English, Maths, Art, Health and Physical Education, in years 3,4,5, & 6.

They also developed an excellent set of teacher aids to support teachers.

My guess is they spend heaps and it took a couple of years.

The result is normal teachers can cover a range of topics like maths, art etc and have limited Football knowledge.

Look at this link, http://www.footballaustralia.com.au...its-primary-schools/ivt37h28ncfa1p9swudksdvmi

This is how to get rugby back into primary schools. Everyone should read it.

There is a link on the above link for teaching resources. They map everything back to either a A-League or W-League clubs.

I copied this bit from their resources link. This is what we are competing with. Either we match it and grow or sent a letter offering some things.

Read this and then say aloud, those player number growth soccer has nothing to do with the governing body.

Copied bits follow.

Football Federation Australia (FFA) and the Hyundai A-League and Westfield W-League clubs are excited to launch a FREE education resource for primary school teachers.
Teachers can choose from any one of 10 Hyundai A-League or Westfield W-League clubs, with each resource consisting of eight integrated units of work for Years 3-4 and Years 5-6 across subjects English, Mathematics, Art and Health & Physical Education.
Each unit is themed with football and is designed to meet the Australian Curriculum cross-curricula priority with Asia and Australia's engagement with Asia.

The Football Fever educational resource:
• Is mapped to the Australian Curriculum;
• Has an Asian-Australian cultural component integrating teaching and learning;
• Teaches character building and community values in a sports context;
• Is accessible to students across multiple intelligences;
• Gives students an opportunity to model their learning to an audience;
• Has a football themed component integrated into each unit of work; and
• Is underpinned by the use of media technology.
-

 

[Strewthcobber]

We've been here before Half, the ARU has the Game On program which mirrors what the FFA have done with their program

GAME ON is a curriculum-based five-week program developed by the Australian Rugby Union which teaches the fundamentals of Rugby to Primary School students.

As well as assisting schools to increase the number of students participating in Rugby, GAME ON is part of the Federal Government’s plan to get more children active and healthy through its Sporting Schools program.

http://www.aru.com.au/gameon/home.aspx


Both programs use fed government money but the schools need to apply for it.

There may well be a significant level of difference in the level of promotion and resourcing

 

[half]

Strew

Sorry just cannot agree.

The ARU talks of lesson plans. Ask any teacher and the difference between the two is vast.

To compare the two as being equal is akin to saying the Wicks first 15 is equal to the AB's first 15.

The ARU is similar to Hockey, Swimming etc. Its more like a compliance approach to ensure government funding, all boxes ticked and I's dotted.

FFA used it to expand player numbers with huge success and have openly attacked AFL in the southern states and in Melbourne in particular.

This link I have put up before, its from Ch 9 in Melbourne, and its player numbers and shock horror soccer has more players than AFL. AFL have reacted by investing over 80 million and starting their female league.

Its roughly two years old. Note the school yard reference and the teacher near the beginning.

https://www.facebook.com/footballvic/videos/886582498029781/

 

[Gnostic]

We've been here before Half, the ARU has the Game On program which mirrors what the FFA have done with their program







http://www.aru.com.au/gameon/home.aspx





Both programs use fed government money but the schools need to apply for it.



There may well be a significant level of difference in the level of promotion and resourcing

Also with what Half has said, in my kids schools in Regional NSW I saw the CRL, Netball, Auskick/AFL and Soccer development officers multiple times in small country schools in the times my kids were there. No once did we see or even hear about the Rugby development program and I actually asked.

 

[Quick Hands]

Just for context - back in the day what was the geographical extent of union in primary schools?

Was it a northern Sydney thing or bigger than that? Country areas?

I'm pretty sure union has never been played in Queensland state schools, and presumably not around the rest of the country either.

Looking at the stats that the ARU published until 2012, which appear to be based on some kind of reality, there had been respective growth in player numbers across the country, with the exception of juniors and seniors in the NSWRU.

Now that's probably a combination of saturation, but also the other issues raised throughout this thread

Until 1947, rugby was the only winter sport played in NSW state schools (boys sport). League gradually encroached after that time.

When I was at primary school in the early 1970s there was a zone rugby competition for primary schools in the Manly zone - Fridays at 1pm. No soccer, no league. When I was at high school in the late 1970s our school and all of the schools in what was then the North Shore Zone had 1st & 2nd grade, 16 A and B, 15 and B, 14 A and B and 13 A and B. Games played at various venues on a Wednesday afternoon. Before the zone season started we had trial matches against schools from other zones. After I left school, I worked a lot of shift work and I was able to referee these matches on a regular basis. As time went by, the competition had shrunk to 13s, 15s and opens (one team each) but was still going up until the early 00s. I'm not sure why it suddenly stopped at that point. I'm told that there was some sort of power struggle in the zone and rugby was replaced by league (soccer already having been introduced).

The primary school competition had ceased prior to the 1990s and had been replaced by league - no idea why, I could only speculate.

Back to the high school rugby. There used to be an inter-zone competition which competed in the CHS tournament to pick the three CHS rep teams (opens only). In those days, the zone team was picked from the zone games, now there are still zone teams picked, but as most zones don't have regular Wednesday competitions, it's done as trials for interested boys. CHS now only picks 2 representative teams instead of 3.

Pretty much all rugby playing schools entered the Waratah Shield (Opens) and the Buchan Shield (15s). Games were very competitive and a variety of schools featured in finals etc.

When I was in Years 11 and 12 we played schools all over Sydney in the Waratah Shield as well as country schools - so from that experience, I assume that rugby was state wide.

Hope this helps.

 

[lou75]

If the Force are to be axed then Pulver and Clarke need to fall on their swords

 

[wamberal]

If the Force are to be axed then Pulver and Clarke need to fall on their swords

So does Tim Johnson. The Firepower Fiasco was probably the worst single thing that has happened to Australian rugby.


Mind you, I wonder how much Firepower money contributed to the decision to bring the Perth team in originally?

 

[Dave Beat]

It's been about 27 years without rugby posts........

And they are back - Allambie Oval, green grass, grass roots

 

[Quick Hands]

It's been about 27 years without rugby posts....

View attachment 9079

And they are back - Allambie Oval, green grass, grass roots

Well done mate. Just have to get those soccery things off the bottom.

 

[half]

Can't think of anywhere else to put this and would love someone from Epping Rugby to comment if they know the full story.

Anyone who has been in Sydney recently will understand how wet its been and most ovals are closed for sport.

Epping Rugby has a history of playing on Summaville Oval often in-spite of field conditions. My understanding a few years years ago the copped a massive fine for playing one Saturday .

Again love someone from the club to fill in the blanks. Last night my son on his way home walks throught SP.

There was one maybe two teams stripped ready to train and carrying on in a very angry fashion.

The council has reached a point it would appear of miss trust of ER that they remotely over ride the lights and ER cannot turn on the lights making training impossible.

My son tells me the outrage of the players and coaches of the council doing this was overwhelming.

Local sporting clubs normally get the use of ovals for a pepper corn price.

The sense of entitlement, and its our oval, when in fact it is a community asset used throughout the day by lots and lots of people.

Finally again my understanding is ER is down to maybe 3 to 4 senior sides and has two fields. They are surrounded by soccer clubs turning kids away because of lack of space.

I fully accept this maybe a the out flyer in actions of coaches and players. But for a council to so miss trust a club to over ride there lighting controls when the field should be closed IMO is a screaming fucking warning and sadly reflects on lack of respecting other users of community parkland. This is almost inviting a hand oval of the fields to soccer IMO.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Not sure of the specifics half, but the lights at most grounds are now centrally controlled, rather than being manually turned on by a key or a magnetic rod.

The local grounds here need a code submitted by a mobile phone to be switched on. Very easy for the council to disable this feature when the ground is closed.

Around here, it's soccer who've been caught a few times training on closed ovals rather than rugby.

 

[BAR]

I have found this thread an interesting read. I'm going to make some comments from my personal observation in recent years.

I grew up on League. When my son wanted to pick up an oval ball that's the direction we went. But, despite living in rugby heartland my son had barely ever seen rugby. Partly because my bent was to League but also because most rugby is hidden away on the obvious access point for most people, free-to-air TV. Rugby is traditionally not visible - except to those who already follow the sport and that's not where growth comes from.

My son's conversion (and mine) came on the back of the father of a friend inviting him to try Rugby. He loved it and has left League a long way behind.

My son went to a public primary school where rugby was the only oval ball code in the school as recently as 2012. but, the rugby in the school was/is maintained solely by eager rugby parents (not the ARU, not the SJRU and not the local clubs). At that same school, over just a few years since 2012 League has become massive (multiple boys and girls teams) and AFL has also taken off. The reason? Both of those codes put people and resources into the school through the local clubs and as well development officers from the codes themselves. They are there regularly and they help the school to deliver their "product". (In fact last Friday I visited the school during the day for the first time in years to see my younger son and there was Greg Florimo and a couple of NRL bedecked helpers.)

Public schools run on the good will and interests (or lack of interest) of the teachers. They're great in providing opportunities to the kids but the easier you make it for them, the more likely it will be that it will happen.

This is a complicated issue and there is no one solution but Rugby's greatest failing is that it simply doesn't put the effort in to ensure its product is out there to be seen (by those who aren't already involved) and to support those who are positioned to help it grow.