Elsom: In or Out?

[Ignoto]

I don't understand the reasoning behind everyone backing Elsom?

Over the past two years I can count on a single hand the games he's actually performed, the rest have been mediocre.

More importantly, why are people wanting to take such a big risk on a liability that hasn't performed? IF you don't reward the likes of Higginbotham, Mowen and Hodgson why should they bother staying around?

Elsom needs to prove both he has the fitness for 80 minutes + and form before he should even be considered a candidate of the yellow jersey. The fact that he's last years Captain shouldn't factor into consideration as he barely set the world on fire then.

 

[Ali's Choice]

I don't understand the reasoning behind everyone backing Elsom?

Over the past two years I can count on a single hand the games he's actually performed, the rest have been mediocre.

More importantly, why are people wanting to take such a big risk on a liability that hasn't performed? IF you don't reward the likes of Higginbotham, Mowen and Hodgson why should they bother staying around?

Elsom needs to prove both he has the fitness for 80 minutes + and form before he should even be considered a candidate of the yellow jersey. The fact that he's last years Captain shouldn't factor into consideration as he barely set the world on fire then.

Not only is Elsom the current Wallaby captain, but there is no player who has made a compelling case for the Wallaby no.6 jersey. Moreover, Elsom has proven that he can perform at test level. Deans will give him first crack at blindside flanker, if fit, and deservedly so.

 

[tigerland12]

I don't care if he starts at 6 or not, just aslong as he isn't captain. Give it to someone who deserves it (ie: Genia, Pocock, Horwill, Sharpe).

 

[qwerty51]

Anyone but Sharpe. He's proven he's not captaincy material at the Force tbh.

 

[Ignoto]

Not only is Elsom the current Wallaby captain, but there is no player who has made a compelling case for the Wallaby no.6 jersey.

How can Elsom make a case for the jersey when he's played one game this year?

Higginbotham has had two outstanding seasons (in a row) and deserves it (this is even after I've taken a step back as a Reds fan).

We need to stop with guaranteeing players a spot in the team because of past history, its a stupid notion. Wheres the hunger to prove one should be there? The reports are looking that Rocky's heading overseas, so why should he bother reaching his pre-euro form?

 

[Sully]

He proved he wasn't a captain when he signed with the force while Queensland captain and then spent the rest of the season signing everyone else up.

 

[Set piece magic]

Kevv knows how to fire the boys up just look at when he gets on the field he's very very active with his mouth. Look no further for great ref control than talking to Ian smith in the Tahs game - saved the game imo. Rocky is a servant but IMO not the thing the Wobs need. James was school captain at BBC and knows how to steer a ship, unlike rocky who just knows how to fuel it.

 

[Rebel rouser]

Anyone but Sharpe. He's proven he's not captaincy material at the Force tbh.

Not sure where you're coming from Qwerty. He's done a decent job at the Force (and I'm not even a Force fan). He plays his heart out week in week out, plays with passion and pride, is reasonable at referee management, and is a team man to the point that he clearly wants to slit his own wrists whenever his team loses. That's captain material where I'm from.

 

[Ali's Choice]

How can Elsom make a case for the jersey when he's played one game this year?

Higginbotham has had two outstanding seasons (in a row) and deserves it (this is even after I've taken a step back as a Reds fan).

We need to stop with guaranteeing players a spot in the team because of past history, its a stupid notion. Wheres the hunger to prove one should be there? The reports are looking that Rocky's heading overseas, so why should he bother reaching his pre-euro form?

I fully respect your opinion. But consider this. Richie McCaw has barely fired a shot during this year's S15. He's certainly not NZ's form no.7, and has started just three games. Using your logic, Graham Henry should dump him as captain.

 

[TheNextBigThing]

I'm 100% behind Rocky (especially after a solid 80 on Saturday) but the reality is that the captain should be the first player picked. The Wobblies are lucky in that they have three highly credentialed and respected provincial captains in the likely XV two of whom (Genia and Sharpe) will be the first two players to be picked for the RWC squad. Rocky, more through the performances of Mcalman and Higginbotham than any fault of his own, no longer has that certainty.
It should be a no-brainer. You should stand by a respected captain especially through such a grueling international calendar. The problem is that the surfeit of options Deans has in both the backrow and the leadership team means someone has to miss out.
The last thing to consider is his durability. It is arguably harder to replace an injured captain during the season than before the squad meets. If Elsom runs on as captain in the 3N he absolutely must not leave the paddock until the 80th minute of the RWC final. It's a big ask for a bloke who will have only played 80mins of rugby during the year. Sharpe and especially Genia are extremely resilient and the likelihood of them playing every minute this year is high.
All told I'm glad I don't have to make some of the decisions Deans will have to after the Super Rugby Final.

 

[Rebel rouser]

I fully respect your opinion. But consider this. Richie McCaw has barely fired a shot during this year's S15. He's certainly not NZ's form no.7, and has started just three games. Using your logic, Graham Henry should dump him as captain.

However, McCaw has spent the last 4 years giving every test team in the world a gaping new a$$hole. Elsom, while consistently in the Wallabies, has never given this kind of consistent man of the match performance. He's dynamite in the NH, slightly above average here.

Edit: And yes, I know both those admission are odd coming from a dyed in the wool wallaby supporter. But I also call a spade a spade.

 

[cyclopath]

Higgers has been good this season, for sure, but only recently has he started to play better in tight, and not so loose. I guess it depends what Deans wants. On previous seasons' form, I would not have picked Higginbotham first. If Elsom got fit, he'll still be well in contention. He looked pretty useful playing 80 mins on Sat with nothing behind him this season. He is a very good player, and that should not be discounted. And don't forget, Elsom played his best rugby in some time on the EOYT last year, which might still be fresh in Deans' mind.

 

[Ali's Choice]

However, McCaw has spent the last 4 years giving every test team in the world a gaping new a$$hole. Elsom, while consistently in the Wallabies, has never given this kind of consistent man of the match performance. He's dynamite in the NH, slightly above average here.

Put yourself in Deans place? Has any player made a compelling case to drop his captain? I don't think so. Because you cannot just drop your captain lightly. Sure, do it if there is a compelling case. But no experienced coach is going to drop their coach on a whim. Because doing so undermines the position of captain. And would certainly alienate not just Elsom, but presumably a large portion of the Wallaby player base.

 

[darkhorse]

The world is in September. That's 3-4 months. When you factor in the pool stages it looks like he'll have 4-5 months to get over his injury and hit peak fitness. If anything I think it will be good for him and we might see the Rocky of old come back.

Don't forgot he played for 2 years straight without a break when he had the super rugby season, then the wallabies, then going o/s with a heineken cup final and finally coming back for the june tests and eoyt and starting another super rugby season. I don't know how many games he played but I'm not sure if any professional rugby player has come close to doing that in the given time period. This is the major reason he is having so many different injuries and IMO after the enforced he will come good.

 

[Gnostic]

Much to the chagrin of a few on this forum many of us do not believe that Elsom has reached the form he displayed pre-Ireland stint or even a shadow of it. The fact is there are better fully fit players in Oz to play 6. He was World class once, but that was at least 3 years ago.

As for AC's assertion of Deans' being a loyal coach, that is a given. He showed his loyalty goes beyond all reason and sense when he continued with the woefully out of form Giteau for two years despite viable alternatives at the time.

 

[Rebel rouser]

Put yourself in Deans place? Has any player made a compelling case to drop his captain? I don't think so. Because you cannot just drop your captain lightly. Sure, do it if there is a compelling case. But no experienced coach is going to drop their coach on a whim. Because doing so undermines the position of captain. And would certainly alienate not just Elsom, but presumably a large portion of the Wallaby player base.

All fair points. Even so, I don't feel it's quite that straight forward. Elsom got the Wallabies captaincy on the 'first picked' criteria. Currently, he's not safely in that category. In addition, I don't feel he actually adds much to the team as captain, not in the same way Eales or Gregan did. In a hypothetical scenario where there was no history to the team, you'd give the captaincy to Genia or Sharpe. Elsom would be nowhere in the reckoning. Quite simply, the only thing he has going for him is his incumbency. But I agree that is strong reason in itself, for all the reasons you have listed.

 

[cyclopath]

Much to the chagrin of a few on this forum many of us do not believe that Elsom has reached the form he displayed pre-Ireland stint or even a shadow of it. The fact is there are better fully fit players in Oz to play 6. He was World class once, but that was at least 3 years ago.

As for AC's assertion of Deans' being a loyal coach, that is a given. He showed his loyalty goes beyond all reason and sense when he continued with the woefully out of form Giteau for two years despite viable alternatives at the time.

Chagrin? Hardly. It's just a case of having a counter opinion. It aint all black and white. Is he the top #6 now? No. Could he be in a couple of months? Maybe he could. Should he be discounted out of hand? No. Only in my opinion.

 

[vidiot]

I don't want to carry him if he is not fit. And I mean FIT, 6 is a position where pace, power and dynamism are key. Rocky is world class if he brings that to the wallabies, but my jaundiced eye saw him as behind - significantly - Higginbum/McCalman et al's recent performances in his one appearance this year.

I have this fear that we won't see the Leinster Rocky again.

 

[tigerland12]

Put yourself in Deans place? Has any player made a compelling case to drop his captain? I don't think so. Because you cannot just drop your captain lightly. Sure, do it if there is a compelling case. But no experienced coach is going to drop their coach on a whim. Because doing so undermines the position of captain. And would certainly alienate not just Elsom, but presumably a large portion of the Wallaby player base.

Whilst you make a good point, I think Elsom needs to go as captain. Look at all the leaders from other nations ( McCaw, Smit, O'Driscoll,Parisse), they are all true leaders of their team, Elsom has never shown that. I was shocked when he was announced as captain initially, and I think he's become a worse player since.

I believe players like Horwill and Genia are born leaders, and David Pocock is also another choice, Elsom lacks credentials as a captain. For Rocky's own personal game, he needs to lose the captaincy to regain that mongrel about him. He isn't good with the refs either, unlike Horwill (as someone eluded previously) and it seems a good percentage of the country wants him out as a captain.

This being said, Deans won't change captains, he is reluctant to change anything (ie: How long he kept Richard Brown and Dean Mumm in the team when better players were sitting on the bench).

 

[farva]

Anyone but Sharpe. He's proven he's not captaincy material at the Force tbh.

No.
He has proven he is captaincy material at the Force.

He would be my selection as captain if I had to choose.

And regarding Rocky. We know he is class. Higgens has done OK, McCalman too. But Rocky has been one of the best performers for a number of years. lets play him at least in the 3N. If he gets his form then we are very happy. If not then we can try one of the others. But to write off one of the best blindsides out there because he has been injured and hasnt blown the world away in the couple of games he has played in a team that is barely functioning is ludicrous.

And the point about the captaincy is a very good one. He is the incumbent captain. Dropping him from the team will cause instability.