John I Dent Cup 2013

[Brumby Jack]

Wendell,

Queanbeyan and Vikings have played some great Grand Finals over recent years and also one of their previous coaches - Glen Christini - also swapped between the clubs.

On your other point about licensed clubs going broke, from what I know at least every club bar Vikings over the last 30 or so years have had financial trouble and either closed or taken over by other parties.

 

[namtrak]

I am guessing they did not have an empire of clubs chock full of pokies 40 years ago?
They have had the right people in the right jobs and have been hugely successful. Most rugby clubs all over the country have had licensed clubs at some stage. But the majority of them went broke because they had the wrong people in the wrong jobs. I take my hat off to the joint.

No doubt they were managed well early on - but now they are a small country unto themselves. The Vikings group includes a gross income of some $27mill per annum just from Pokies. (This figure is quite old) Yes the group supports a myriad of sporting clubs and groups (51 according to their website), however there is no way it can be considered anything close to a level playing field. Not sure there is any interest in levelling out the playing field but I know when any other team wins the John Dent it is seen as a pretty special effort

 

[No.8]

Vikings is a fantastic club and have done so well for themselves - people who know Canberra/Erindale - it all started from that small building (now an office building) across from Maccas - into 4 huge clubs - Rugby Union is the heart and soul of the Vikings and they have done SO MUCH for Rugby Union in Canberra and also the surrounding areas such as country NSW (near Canberra) and also the South Coast Rugby Union.

To be honest if Vikings really wanted to be they could be the strongest club rugby side in Australia by a mile (playing wise) - do you think they buy every single player they could? If so you would prob be looking at a side that would be stronger than most Super Rugby teams with a bigger money pool backing them.

Every team in the John I Dent cup is recruiting nowdays - besides maybe Uni-Norths? Easts STRUGGLED last year and didnt even look like winning a game the coach/players they have recruited and the players they have been given from the Brumbies has been fantastic for the club and the comp.

Qbn are a fantastic side and lets be honest over the last 6 years or so they have had the luxury over alot more/most of the St Edmunds 1st XV players coming over to play from them - after the Dan Penca lead 1st XV decided they would rather play for Qbn than take offers from the Vikings back in 2006/2007 - so in that regard Vikings have had to look down different roads to find players as St Eddies players stayed at qbn and Marist players decided to play for Royals. Alot of schoolboys for some reason didnt want to be apart of Vikings from this time - besides a handful of course.

 

[Grant Jones]

I am new to this particular forum page and my club is west harbour in sydney. I keep an eye on the john i dent page to see what is happening with good canberra players. One thing I can't understand is why qbyn constantly have a crack at other clubs (vikings in particular) about recruiting. Is recruiting not just a part of sport in 2013? Players come and go from all sports these days looking for opportunity. Maybe qbyn should stop complaining about others and worry about their own backyard. Then they might start to win a few more games. I have just been on the tuggeranong website and it appears they have a very good setup for all players. their academy program looks first class and provides a program for young players to join and develop. to say all they do is just buy players is rubbish. from what i can see good players will want to go to that club because of the professionalism. My club are envious of a club like the vikings. In regards to easts jake has obviously helped them out because from what i have been told last year they were terrible. is this not a good thing to give them a leg up to get back on their feet? Stop whinging qbyn and look at the bigger picture.

I think the whole thing about the perceived whinging about Vikings recruiting players is a long running joke that all other Canberra clubs have with Vikings and I too take my hat off to them for the type of club they have developed there. As far as us a QBN go it is more something that we use as motivation when we take them on as we are never going to match them with talented recruits as quite simply we don't have the cash. We do recruit players (one or two) each year to try and match it with the big guns and it makes it all the more rewarding when we do beat them with the majority of our team made up by local players. We are proud of this because a little over 10 years ago when we were on the verge of dropping back to the subs division, people had a plan to get local players who were going to other clubs straight out school to come back and play for our club. This has been quite successful and this has meant that players outside of Queanbeyan also want to come and play for our club because they want to play with their mates. As far as Tuggeranong developing their own players and promoting their own juniors, that is rubbish, and can provide countless examples how this is not the case. Although I do give Brad Harris credit for trying to improve this now at their club. Jake helping Easts out is something that I don't agree with, because what this has done is make their first grade a little bit more competitive and hidden problems that they have right throughout their club. What it has also done is neglect a proud club in Uni-Norths who are now in a position Easts were in last year in first grade because of this decision. Calling teams East South Africa and Invitational XV is just a bit of light hearted banter just as QBN has been called Struggle Town by everyone across the border for years. As far as your comment of winning a few games go, while we are not in the position we would like in first grade because of 5 losses (one by one point, one by two points and one by three points), as a club we are very happy with how the club as a whole is going having only lost two games in any lower grade game and must be close to competing with the might of the Vikings for the club Championship. One thing that also needs to be remembered as set out in the Rules of Competition is that the John I Dent remains an amateur competition. So maybe while we encourage I encourage your input Wendell, maybe don't rely on reading a clubs website as facts to base an argument on and find out a little bit more about our competition before making some of your claims. Good luck with your season, hope our former player Henry Sevula is doing well for your club.

 

[Grant Jones]

Vikings is a fantastic club and have done so well for themselves - people who know Canberra/Erindale - it all started from that small building (now an office building) across from Maccas - into 4 huge clubs - Rugby Union is the heart and soul of the Vikings and they have done SO MUCH for Rugby Union in Canberra and also the surrounding areas such as country NSW (near Canberra) and also the South Coast Rugby Union.

To be honest if Vikings really wanted to be they could be the strongest club rugby side in Australia by a mile (playing wise) - do you think they buy every single player they could? If so you would prob be looking at a side that would be stronger than most Super Rugby teams with a bigger money pool backing them.

Every team in the John I Dent cup is recruiting nowdays - besides maybe Uni-Norths? Easts STRUGGLED last year and didnt even look like winning a game the coach/players they have recruited and the players they have been given from the Brumbies has been fantastic for the club and the comp.

Qbn are a fantastic side and lets be honest over the last 6 years or so they have had the luxury over alot more/most of the St Edmunds 1st XV players coming over to play from them - after the Dan Penca lead 1st XV decided they would rather play for Qbn than take offers from the Vikings back in 2006/2007 - so in that regard Vikings have had to look down different roads to find players as St Eddies players stayed at qbn and Marist players decided to play for Royals. Alot of schoolboys for some reason didnt want to be apart of Vikings from this time - besides a handful of course.

Agree with most of what you say here, don't agree with Easts getting more Brumbies players as good for the comp as from what I can see it is hiding much deeper problems they have there and threatens Uni-Norths' viability in the first grade comp in the years to come because they have been neglected by the Brumbies in this area.
Players coming to QBN out of school started with the likes of Mark Henjak, Rich Windsor, Jimmy Maher, Jonny Kevin etc, coming after they finished school in 2003, that was the start of what we have now. People just associate Den Penca and his year as they year it started as it was his first year out of school that we won the first grade comp.
And the reason that they don't want to go to Tuggeranong is because either they want to play with their mates or they can't see a path to first grade through their colts and lower grade teams.

 

[Grant Jones]

No doubt they were managed well early on - but now they are a small country unto themselves. The Vikings group includes a gross income of some $27mill per annum just from Pokies. (This figure is quite old) Yes the group supports a myriad of sporting clubs and groups (51 according to their website), however there is no way it can be considered anything close to a level playing field. Not sure there is any interest in levelling out the playing field but I know when any other team wins the John Dent it is seen as a pretty special effort

It should also be remembered that QBN actually helped Tuggeranong in their very early years as QBN wanted a more competitive and bigger local comp, don't think at the time this help would of helped Vikings develop into the powerhouse they are now.

 

[Bugeye]

From the Vikings website and a pic of the club
Next came the matter of finance. Approaches were made to the established Licensed Rugby Clubs and both Royals and Queanbeyan indicated that they would provide substantial support through unsecured loans, while the ACT Rugby Club at Barton immediately invested $1,000. A number of members also invested in the Club.

 

[namtrak]

Either way, some of the best rugby I've watched over the last 10 years are those games at David Campese oval when the Vikings (distinctly looking like they don't want to be there) get savaged by the Whites and the crowd. Not many places you get stand so close to such a high standard game. The aggressive defence was something to behold.

 

[Bugeye]

Either way, some of the best rugby I've watched over the last 10 years are those games at David Campese oval when the Vikings (distinctly looking like they don't want to be there) get savaged by the Whites and the crowd. Not many places you get stand so close to such a high standard game. The aggressive defence was something to behold.

The Qbn supporters near the sidelines with that bloody loud chainsaw I can do without

 

[Grant Jones]

The Qbn supporters near the sidelines with that bloody loud chainsaw I can do without

Haha I wasn't a big fan of it either, but Vikings supporters hating it was exactly the reason it was there, all in good spirit! Jamie 'Chainsaw' Marmont isn't playing for us this year so you won't need to worry about that!

 

[Slim 293]

Hey Wendell, this is where whatever legitimate criticism of Vikings turns into hysterical nonsense:

As far as Tuggeranong developing their own players and promoting their own juniors, that is rubbish.

 

[forwards4ever]

Can Owls win this weekend?

 

[Grant Jones]

Can Owls win this weekend?

I hope so, would be good to see them get a win!

 

[Grant Jones]

Hey Wendell, this is where whatever legitimate criticism of Vikings turns into hysterical nonsense:

So you're saying that Tuggeranong do promote their own juniors?

 

[Wendell]

So you're saying that Tuggeranong do promote their own juniors?

What do you think the Academy they have is doing? Is that not developing local players and giving them the best possible chance to reach their potential? I have no idea what that academy costs to run but it would not be cheap. If they had no interest in development they would use that money to just bring players in. Do they not have their own development officer? Again another role they dont need to spend money on but they do. Whether they are local juniors or not there have been plenty of players over the years that have worked thru their doors and gone on to be professional footballers. The hooker they had last year has openly said (rebels website) that if it was not for the vikings program/coaching/players he would not have gained a contract at the Rebels. They are obviously doing plenty of things well.

 

[No.8]

What do you think the Academy they have is doing? Is that not developing local players and giving them the best possible chance to reach their potential? I have no idea what that academy costs to run but it would not be cheap. If they had no interest in development they would use that money to just bring players in. Do they not have their own development officer? Again another role they dont need to spend money on but they do. Whether they are local juniors or not there have been plenty of players over the years that have worked thru their doors and gone on to be professional footballers. The hooker they had last year has openly said (rebels website) that if it was not for the vikings program/coaching/players he would not have gained a contract at the Rebels. They are obviously doing plenty of things well.

I have to agree with you Wendell - I have been part of the vikings development programs in the past as a Junior and they were fantastic and brough a very professional edge to your prep and playing and this is what you need if you are 15/16 years old moving into 1st XV/senior footy in a few years.

We used to have meetings in the office building at Erindale and train at Vikings Gym (at Erindale Club) - I think the rugby boys now have their own gym behind the stand at Viking Park.

As you said they have the money to simply buy players if they wanted to - I dont have a prob with players from different schools are in the dev programs either - combined with the best players in the vikings junior ranks - these development programs should be open to the best young junior players in Canberra - and if the other clubs want to follow and offer this to players aswell then so be it.

As you sort of touched on and I have said in past posts - if the Vikings really wanted to they could go out to NSW/QLD pick the best players and pay for a team that is just as strong as most Super rugby teams in Aus and more money backing them - but they dont and they put ALOT of investment into developing junior talent within Canberra.

 

[Slim 293]

So you're saying that Tuggeranong do promote their own juniors?

I'm not sure if it's jealousy or spite, but it's incredibly silly to suggest otherwise.........

 

[Grant Jones]

I'm not sure if it's jealousy or spite, but it's incredibly silly to suggest otherwise...

Funny then that a Tuggeranong player (local junior of Tuggeranong) has contacted our club about the possibility of joining us because he is sick of the club continuing to bring in players in front of him, because he is not of super rugby level but is def a first grade standard player. And what they did do last year was pretty much buy a super rugby standard team to win the comp. Not jealousy mate, couldn't be prouder of our club and the culture we have and as I have said before, when we do manage to beat you, it makes it all the more rewarding!

 

[Rock Lobster]

Interesting discussion about Vikings & their "development" of juniors. I was playing in the local comp during their formative years when they were on the end of regular hidings, however everyone acknowledged Vikings would eventually become a powerhouse due to the massive junior base they would be able to draw from as the area grew. From around 1990 onwards when they became a major force this was the case as they drew players from their juniors, Erindale College & Marist. They had some outstanding sides during the early to mid 90's chocabloc with local talent but with the advent of professional rugby, things began to change.

With their network of licenced clubs behind them, Vikings were, and are still, able to entice players from all over Australia & the world with incentives no other clubs are able to offer and this is what gets every other clubs back up. As mentioned above it simply is not a level playing field & while the rules of competition are very clear in relation to payment of players, Vikings are able, within the rules, to offer jobs at their clubs, payment of all medical expenses, accommodation expenses & gym/rehab facilities etc. at no cost, that no other club in Canberra can offer. The claim that they could simply go & buy a super rugby strength side is a nonsense as the local rules simply don't allow for it.

Now if all these resources were being directed at kids who came through their juniors or kids that played juniors with them but then had to play for their private schools, then I don't think anyone would have too much of a problem but clearly that is not the case. New coach Brad Harris is making all the right noises about promoting local juniors & I sincerely hope he follows through with that goal in coming years but it remains to be seen. As long as they continue to place ads in NZ papers for colts & senior players offering accommodation & job opportunities I will remain sceptical. I would be very interested if someone from Vikings could provide information regarding how many local juniors played in their 1st Grade grand final sides from the last 2 years??

 

[No.8]

I guess at the end of the day there are a few points that come up -

1. The best players from around u12's will more than likely be looking at private schools with better rugby pathways than Vikings Juniors - thats just a fact of junior sport.

2. Yes they cant "buy" a super rugby standard side but they could if they wanted to i.e they have the money to do so.

3. All the rugby clubs at one point were on a level playing field in some way or another - so why should Vikings be put down for being a successful business? All the other clubs in reality could of done the same.

4. I dont think Vikings should be put down for not having more juniors in there 1st grade team - how many Wests Juniors/QYBN Juniors/Eagles juniors etc etc are in the 1st grade teams? Really once they finish school you will find most of the players are sourced from Eddies, Marist, Grammar - surrounding areas, have been brought in at some point by the Brumbies and just stayed around from syd, qld, melb or have been brought in by the clubs - not just Vikings etc

5. There are hundreds/thousands of clubs around the world that look for players and offer jobs/acom etc - its not un-normal for a rugby club to do this.

I do agree with you that yes maybe Vikings could do more to promote junior players but they do have a fantastic development program and put alot into the junior system - but at the end of the day you need the best players and the players that will win you games.