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Julia's Reign

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Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
(I think, according to his previous posts) Bowside is saying that future voters should be educated about economics in schools so they don't buy into all this silly obsession about a "budget surplus". Because the government is only going into suprlus for political reasons, not economic reasons.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
See I think the NBN is a joke, the ETS is worse (and was foisted on them by the Greens), the pokies thing wasn't even their policy and they have dumped it already, the Stimulus of cash payments and school halls and insulation were possibly the greatest wastes of money and missed opportunities ever to arise from Policy Decisions and could have created a massive and world leading early stage venture capital fund that could have had long lasting economic impacts as WELL AS providing rapid stimulus and economic activity and spending, been spent on Health or other infrastructure initiatives like mass transport and power grids etc etc.

For the most part Labor policy sucks in my view. Refugees are another epic fail and means testing the private health care rebate is bad policy too.

Do you believe in climate change and the need to reduce reliance on the fossil fuel based economy?

Your idea about a venture capital fund is interesting, but it has as many holes as the stimulus plan did. Firstly, who are we trusting to invest this money and how are you going to justify spending tax payers money paying them big bucks in the midst of a global recession which was in part 'caused' by exactly the type of people who you would be paying to run the fund?

Secondly, if you plan on putting the money into the markets or commodities surely this would create liquidity problems?

Thirdly, would this obvious government intervention in the market not be exploited by other funds?
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Are you saying my opinion is flawed because I have no idea about basic economics?

That isn't a challenge, just a question. I wouldn't actually disagree with your position here. I think it's important for people to understand these issues at least to a basic level.

Nah dude I meant to post that after my post it had no relevance to yours. No offence intended.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Do you believe in climate change and the need to reduce reliance on the fossil fuel based economy?

Your idea about a venture capital fund is interesting, but it has as many holes as the stimulus plan did. Firstly, who are we trusting to invest this money and how are you going to justify spending tax payers money paying them big bucks in the midst of a global recession which was in part 'caused' by exactly the type of people who you would be paying to run the fund?

Secondly, if you plan on putting the money into the markets or commodities surely this would create liquidity problems?

Thirdly, would this obvious government intervention in the market not be exploited by other funds?

Maybe you are forgetting that we already trust someone to run the multi-billion dollar future fund?

Secondly and thirdly, why would a government fund investing in the market be any different to another large investor? Obviously they can't pile it all in one day, but our responsible manager of that fund wouldn't, would they?
 

lincoln

Bob Loudon (25)
Maybe you are forgetting that we already trust someone to run the multi-billion dollar future fund?

Secondly and thirdly, why would a government fund investing in the market be any different to another large investor? Obviously they can't pile it all in one day, but our responsible manager of that fund wouldn't, would they?
Being a responsible fund manager I have a fiduciary responsibility to my clients - ipso facto make money whenever you can.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Maybe you are forgetting that we already trust someone to run the multi-billion dollar future fund?

Secondly and thirdly, why would a government fund investing in the market be any different to another large investor? Obviously they can't pile it all in one day, but our responsible manager of that fund wouldn't, would they?

The government spent 42 billion on economic stimuli in 2008.

JP Morgan is the biggest fund in america (A much larger economy than ours) and it is running 54 billion, the next biggest is running 45, then next biggest 32, and after that they continue to drop till about the mid to low 20's then they petter down with about a billion difference.

Putting the stimulus money into a fund was simply not feasible, it would have been too big to function well, especially if it was trying to trade Australian companies in order to prop up the domestic economy. Even a fund a quarter of the size of the stimulus money would have been absolutely huge by Australian standards. It is simply to much money to be managing with to many limitations of how to trade it.

Then there are all the ethical issues involved. If the government fund is investing in certain companies can the government be accused of favoritism. What happens when money is inevitably withdrawn from the fund - will investors rush in to short whatever company the government invests in knowing the stimulus will dry up sooner or later?

What happens if the fund fails?

I'll admit this is pushing the limits of my economic knowledge but the way I see it - putting it into a fund would have have worked no better than spending it on school halls and roof insulation.

At the end of the day the treasury would have done the maths on the stimulus, looked at the fiscal multiplier, the interest of the deficit, the populations marginal propensity to consume and import and after all that realized that it was the best option. When it comes to that sort of money party politics is thrown out the window to an extent and they would haul in the independent economists and finance people and get them to work it.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Do you believe in climate change and the need to reduce reliance on the fossil fuel based economy?

Your idea about a venture capital fund is interesting, but it has as many holes as the stimulus plan did. Firstly, who are we trusting to invest this money and how are you going to justify spending tax payers money paying them big bucks in the midst of a global recession which was in part 'caused' by exactly the type of people who you would be paying to run the fund?

Secondly, if you plan on putting the money into the markets or commodities surely this would create liquidity problems?

Thirdly, would this obvious government intervention in the market not be exploited by other funds?


I have a detailed sort of spiel on the early stage vc fund idea. Posted it in another thread somewhere. Early stage vc for fast growth and startup businesses is a well trodden path. Not listed companies generally. There have been plenty of government backed funds of this nature in other countries.

And politics is never thrown out the window. Labor would have been very averse to looking like they were funding businesses when their constituents are workers.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Bowside,

I agree that all that the stimulus could not go into one fund nor that all money in a fund should be spent on australian equities alone. It has generally been agreed that the stimulus was about double what was actually required. Turnbull and hockey argued this at the time, but despite the fact that only a few months previous to that rudd and tanner were cost cutting everywhere, they got scared about presiding over a recession and ignored advice given to them and basically overreacted.

They had the opportunity to more efficiently spend Nd create a true legacy for the australian people. (you know that the school stimulus could only be spent on large builings, not on things like upgrading existing with things such as insulation, aircon, and computers. Why? Because Rudd and gillard wanted to attend these grand openings and put plaques on all the school halls (it was written in the funding document as a requirement to invite gillard to the grand opening).

I am not saying putting half the stimulus spent into a fund would have been the best way forward, but I suspect it would have been better than what we got. Particularly if it's goal was to generate funds for infrastructure investment and it was governed in a similar way to the future fund.

Anyway you are ignoring a couple of things in your response:

1. The future fund is around 75 billion.
2. The stimulus package was drafted up by gillard and Rudd on a plane flight. I have never read anything to suggest that treasury had an influence over it's direction (although I hope they did do some modeling of it's effectiveness).
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Nah dude I meant to post that after my post it had no relevance to yours. No offence intended.

No offence taken, I was just wondering. It's a good point though in terms of the benefit a basic level of understanding of economics would have when it comes to forming opinions about certain government policies.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
OK - re the stupid stimulus efforts by Labor - my view expanded:

Think of the Stimulus as Economic Nutrition. You, as an economy, can buy Coke, Chips and Chocolate or Meat, Potato and 3 veg. You'll get a feed with your money and your blood sugar will rise, avoiding a crash, but there is a big difference to what happens after.

The 40 Billion in payments was an economic sugar hit. It avoided a crash but to what ends and at what cost? The lost opportunity makes me cry blood. They wanted to protect jobs and stimulate the economy right? Most people are employed in SME's. When they have jobs, when business is confident, they keep spending. The staff buy consumer goods but business also spends on itself - on IT, equipment, staff, new projects, r&d etc. I am not talking about investments in Australian Equities. I'm saying that if the money was meant to be a STIMULUS, why not stimulate a part of the economy that might KEEP stimulating. There are no performance requirements or required rates of return - its a STIMULUS.

Imagine if that 40 BILLION had been allocated as early stage Venture Capital for SME expansion and new business startups. The VC model sort of works on the basis that out of 10 investments half will sink after a period of time (during which they spend money on staff, equipment, marketing, rent, r&d etc - WIN), some keep bubbling along as small but unspectacular businesses and one or two will take off in a big way. Lets say even HALF of it was allocated this way and $20,000,000,000 was still handed out like so much candy, just reduce the $900 odd dollars to a bit less than $500 - still a nice hand-out right? But now we have a 20 BILLION dollar fund going to SME's and Start-ups and no expectation or requirement for it to even be that carefully handled (it's a stimulus after all - the point id for it to be spent), as long as it is spent on approved things (like non-owner related staff, plant and equipment, tooling, manufacturing, marketing, business and strategic plans etc and not on a new Ferrari for the owner) - and it needs to be spent within a certain period of time.

Lets say it's 1 in 10 go Big and only 2 in 10 bubble along, with the rest failing after 2 years on average but having put money and liquidity into the market and employed people during that time. That is a worse than historical scenario. Fact is out of these 7 Duds, a couple will get snapped up by competitors or re-birthed and will still provide value in the economy even if their entities crumble. How many Rippers and how many Good businesses would we now have in place of the nothing, the sugar withdrawals, we have instead?

If you start out with a potential allocation of $1,000,000 per business (no guarantee they'll get it all, and it gets dropped in with tranches) so you can allocate follow on funds and really accelerate them hard and do it in tranches so if they falter you can pull back and re-allocate those funds to better prospects, some get 1.5 mill, some get $500k - but all in relatively short order you have just launched or dramatically changed 20,000 businesses. TWENTY THOUSAND.

10 percent of them will go gangbusters - 2,000 new or dramatically larger businesses going nuts - new markets, new products, new technology, new staff new exports, new opportunities.

You also have 4000 businesses doing pretty well but not as spectacularly as the stars.

And for a couple of years, 14,000 other businesses did not sack anyone, tried hard to expand, tried new things and kept the economy moving. Some of those will have been start-ups and they will have disappeared. Some will have been existing businesses that just don't get any bigger, but they are still here when otherwise they might not have been or would have contracted - so even at this level there have been lasting as well as immediate benefits for the economy. Plus, some of these businesses that went pop still made something useful, it just got sucked into some other business because it wasn't a business in it's own right, maybe just a great product. That activity is probably still having a lingering positive effect.

So there you have it. It all could have been managed by existing institutional VC firms and government commercialization and grant bodies and what we would now have would be vastly different to the dead cat bounce we ended up with.

It is such a missed opportunity. Makes me want to throw up on my shoes.

It's not fly-by-nighters popping up to claim Insulation Grant money, or throwing $1Mill at every man woman and child. Early Stage Venture Capital and the model for rapid, tranche based investments in fast growth companies is well established. Frankly, if you allocated 10 Billion to companies at a maximum investment of $500,000 in 3 tranches and allocated any unused portion (not all companies will get all of the $500k) plus the other 10 Billion as a Follow-On Fund for those in the first round that can justify and utilise it that would actually WORK better, but this is as much about the stimulus of spending the payments as it is about the end result. You can get the 1:2:7 ratio I mentioned with well aimed shots at a Dartboard, and getting the funds out there quickly is important. It wouldn't be getting thrown at mum and dad type corner stores, hair salons and such anyway. Think of the types of businesses that are in Technology Incubators around the country right now, alternative energy companies trying to fund r&d, all of the sme's engaged with State Government commercialisation programs already, those applying for limited, competitive grants, and those out there with turnovers around 2 to 5 million that need capital to expand and grab new opportunities.

$900 to single mums and low income earners to buy crap or $500 to them and a 20 BILLION Dollar investment in early stage and fast growth SME's.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
No offence taken, I was just wondering. It's a good point though in terms of the benefit a basic level of understanding of economics would have when it comes to forming opinions about certain government policies.

And possibly another reason for non-compulsory voting?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The function of stimulus is not to spend efficiently, it is to spend quickly.

Ideally to spend quickly in your own economy.

Although the main goal is for quick spending, surely you would concede that quick and efficient spending is better than just quick spending?
 

Schadenfreude

John Solomon (38)
Stimulus money is to widely distribute cash into the economy.

They identified a sector which could do that - building, because it also has flow-on spending in manufacturing, transport, employment, overpowered utes, beer and cigarettes.

Then they identified something that is everywhere. Schools could benefit from some investment, geographically perfectly distributed, they are in every community, and people can SEE the construction going on near them which improves business confidence.

That's a 5 minute conversation. And then here's your options, we can sit around managing every penny carefully, slowly, and spend 20% of the money managing it, or we could get it out there now, when it will make a difference, and spend 5% of the money managing it.

There was waste but all the goals were achieved... who sits around moaning about a policy that achieved EVERY goal it had?
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Stimulus money is to widely distribute cash into the economy.

They identified a sector which could do that - building, because it also has flow-on spending in manufacturing, transport, employment, overpowered utes, beer and cigarettes.

Then they identified something that is everywhere. Schools could benefit from some investment, geographically perfectly distributed, they are in every community, and people can SEE the construction going on near them which improves business confidence.

That's a 5 minute conversation. And then here's your options, we can sit around managing every penny carefully, slowly, and spend 20% of the money managing it, or we could get it out there now, when it will make a difference, and spend 5% of the money managing it.

There was waste but all the goals were achieved... who sits around moaning about a policy that achieved EVERY goal it had?

An early stage VC fund would have got the money into the hands of 20,000 businesses quickly and from there straight into the pockets of employees, service providers and their staff, suppliers of business equipment, tradies who do fitouts, etc etc - the SME sector is accepted by all sides to be the engine room that drives the economy - if you want to stimulate an economy it is a great place to start. And it would have created new research and development, products, intellectual property and generated new employment as well as preventing the loss of jobs in many cases.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I love that we have compulsory voting as one way or another it forces citizens to get involved in their democracy. Apathy towards the democratic process is punished by bad government. The country always gets the government it deserves.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
It also forces politicians to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Appeal to those who know very little or nothing about politics or government. It gives power to those people that vote based on a politicians spin or getting more hand outs from one over another.

It goes against your assertion that we'd be better off if everyone had an understanding of economics, as I believe it is likely that you would have a higher % of people that know something of economics voting in a non-compulsory system.

We want engaged people to run our country, shouldn't we have these people also choosing who runs the country?

The other point is in a democracy it is meant to be about choice. Why can't people then choose not to vote if they don't want to?
 
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