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Julia's Reign

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The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Ash, for all of my griping, we do look comparatively good by the standards of the rest of the world, I agree there. I guess I've become too used to the relatively prudent management we've had in the past and expect better from our Finance and Treasury ministries.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Scotty I absolutely refuse to get in a debate about a mining tax. And I won't.

The king pin of levies is none other than John Howard. Which no doubt you supported. So when Howard tried to take funding from important services like transportation, Arts, Education, and ensure there was a big surplus, he still taxed us. Not once but about 6 or so times. He had money in the bank yet he still wanted to tax, tax, tax.

I have said there can and should be cuts, but a levy at the same time is a good idea.

Contradictory to all your opinions of me, I do not nor did not support all that Howard or Abbott have done/do. The fact is that for 3 years of Howards' term (03-06) I wasn't in this country so took less interest in its politics and prior to 03 was only half interested (like most in their early 20s). Just because I am very critical of some of the poor decisions that this government has done, does not automatically make me 100% supportive of the other side of the game. In fact, I'd be happy for anyone to point out where I've said 'Howard was such a great priminister' or words to that effect. I bet you can't.

I also find it quite amusing that everytime I point out an issue with a government policy, the supporters of the current government often revert to 'but Howard wasn't any better'. Well, if we keep looking back, we can't ever expect to get better. The goal post are here and now, not 4 years ago.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Is the size of the economic impact any different between the things you just listed? How is a one-off levy to pay off a one-off event such bad policy? Howard and Costello definitely thought it wasn't bad policy. Hence the huge irony in that Costello column.

BTW, the way the levy is set up is a good peice of progressive taxation.



Sounds like you are confused with what happens now with the first sentence of the above. Everyone pays their share of tax in return for the security and services provided by the government.

The second sentence of the above, how is that relevant to the levy at all? The levy is there to fix infrastructure damaged by the storm. It has nothing do with, quote, "giv[ing] that money to people less deserving, to people that have worked less hard".

Please, stop with the slippery slope stuff.

Ash,

A few points:

1. You support the future fund so that we can ensure government works super, yet you are also supporting a one of levy in lieu of a continuous type one that could go into a disaster fund? Surely a consistent approach, leading to a disaster type fund is better than a reactionary approach (which actually only gets you the money 1-2 years later than it is required). Your arguments are somewhat inconsistent.

2. You say 'everyone pays'. So tell me then, why is the levy only applied to those earning $50k or more? Why does it increase for those earning more than $100k? We have a system of progressive taxation, but it is added to a system of means testing. Where is the fairness in that?

3. The second sentence you referred to was not referring to the levy, more the mining tax and now a possible discussion on a bank tax. 'Super Profits'. Lets tax the two industries that are the reason we didn't go into recession - what a great idea!
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
TBH; yeah, I think you are quite correct there - about the government panicking. I think that they either don't have the confidence and feel that they must paint this picture of them being great economic managers to the public (as many perceive Howard and Costello to have been), or they let the opposition's attacks get to them (how Abbott can paint himself as a better economic manager after the huge black hole blunder in the election is beyond me, but the government lets him do it). Hence this irrational fear of not returning to surplus by 2012 - 2013.

The government is actually praised for the stimulus by bodies like the IMF, but with the benefit of hindsight we know they went too far and their medium to long term stimulus programs were simply not well thought out or run - the insulation scheme was sheer stupidity, the BER was mismanaged, and I still think that the FHOB was disingenuous (and poor) policy, as was relaxing the FIRB rules. If they had stuck with the $900 grants, a good medium term stimulus project and a well run BER scheme then they would look like great economic managers through the GFC (and surely this still might've looked prudent at the time). But history will say they screwed their stimulus measures, and then continued with the silly schemes like copying the US' "clash for clunkers" when no further stimulus was needed. Not to mention that they didn't have the balls to either dump, or better, delay, their promised tax cuts despite the GFC.

Many forget that the opposition called for approximately half the stimulus spending that the government proposed. If the government has listened they would have been seen as great financial managers and we'd be in a much better position right now.
 

Elfster

Dave Cowper (27)
With regard to our current state economically, the oft used and misused expression that Australia is the "Lucky Country" probably rings true. We were insulated a fair bit by the the GFC due to the demand of raw materials from China and India. And we were in a fairly good initially financially - we had the capacity to spend and do things. So Australia steamed through the GFC due to various measures of good luck and good management. However, what p's me off about our politicians (on both sides) is that the seem to assume the "good luck" part of the equation is permanent and thus do not look too much at the good managment and foresight side of things. Superficially I think that some of the better ideas may come from Labour, but their ideas need the Coalition to manage it for the best results. Though I despair at both Abbot and Gillard.

And (continuing my rant) all this talk of the end of the GFC is potentially a bit premature. The reasons for it (lack of governance, lack of understanding, appalling credit policies, fiscal, monetary disjoints etc) are still out there. And before the Global Financial Crisis GFC, there was the other potentially more pressing GFC. Global Food Crisis - this is potentially more dangerous as it impacts the great masses, not those living off the largesse of Wall Street/ The City etc. The increase in the price of some basic commodities recently - sugar, wheat is quite frightening.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
This flood levy is the very definition of political cowardice. The reason that Labor have introduced it is so they can get the budget back to surplus by 2012/13. They could have just paid for it with loans and spared the taxpayer any expense, but they are SO petrified about what the opposition would say if they returned another budget in deficit that they took the easy way out. So now we will just scrape a surplus in 2012/13 as opposed to just scraping a deficit. Well hallelujah.

Howard and Costello were creators of this 'surplus = good, deficit = disastrous', but the blame now has to lie with Gillard and Swan for mindlessly promoting that with their misguided policies.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
This flood levy is the very definition of political cowardice. The reason that Labor have introduced it is so they can get the budget back to surplus by 2012/13. They could have just paid for it with loans and spared the taxpayer any expense, but they are SO petrified about what the opposition would say if they returned another budget in deficit that they took the easy way out. So now we will just scrape a surplus in 2012/13 as opposed to just scraping a deficit. Well hallelujah.

Howard and Costello were creators of this 'surplus = good, deficit = disastrous', but the blame now has to lie with Gillard and Swan for mindlessly promoting that with their misguided policies.

A lot of that fear comes from the general public's perceptions aswell. Regardless of what the media would like to spruik come election time re: major issues, the overwhelming issue when determining who to vote for is the economy and the belief that a surplus is absolutely vital to economic prosperity. Not returning a surplus come 2012/13 would have likely been just as unpopular as this levy. That said, for the majority of the workforce its around a $1 a week. Nothing really. I don't see the issue but that's just personal opinion.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I think at least maintaining a balanced budget or preferably one in surplus is a good thing. It allows the country to deal with these unexpected events and not bankrupt us. Just like the rest of us saving for the proverbial "rainy day". When I look at the debt and deficit numbers for a lot of other countries, they look pretty bleak in some cases and require severe austerity measures to stop their national finances from collapsing. I don't want us to be like that.

With that said, I go back to my earlier comments about the funding of the flood recovery: there is plenty of budget pork that could be eliminated before we have to start hitting people with a new tax.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Scotty; the difference between the future public pension liability covered by the Future Fund is that it is known and can be estimated in its size. Whilst in principle a national disaster fund sounds great (and I thought so too until further thought on the matter), the issue is that natural disasters are not predictable events, and even if you can guess when, say, the next flood might hit, then predictions for the economic impact are nearly impossible to get right, let alone in the right order of magnitude.

Regarding the levy, I will say it again: I believe it is a great piece of progressive taxation (ignoring, for a second, whether you think it is right or wrong). It kicks in at a minimal amount for only every dollar over $50k, then for every dollar over $100k it kicks up again (but only for those dollars over $100k), so in actuality it is not "means tested" at all. The vibe I am getting is that you think it's unfair that the highly paid pay more. With a good piece of progressive taxation, the amount they pay more scales fairly, so I fail to see the argument. I would not consider the medicare levy, for example, a good piece of progressive taxation, rather it is what you said the levy is - that is, means tested.

Additionally, whilst raiding the Future Fund, which is covering a known and predictable future liability, can be seen and proven to be bad (based on the known future shortfall), raiding a fund which is providing for an unknown liability for an event that may or may not ever happen is much more politically bearable. Every four years I would place a bet that both parties would be raiding the natural disaster fund to pay for election promises.

I never spoke out in support of a bank tax, and I don't think I would. The difference between mining and other tax revenue is that mining is a "temporary" (or finite) industry, and when it disappears in the future you see how badly it has distorted the economy (eg Dutch disease, which we have already seen in Australia). Let's face it, Australia's exports are propped up by the mining industry, we were saved by digging up dirt and China's increased speculative liquidity flowing into our commodity prices. It's sad to see our economy lampooned as digging up dirt and selling houses. It's hardly a sustainable future. I support the MRRT, but it needs to be invested in two things: 1) supporting industries distorted by the mining industry (and this is VERY hard), and 2) establish a fund to promote other industries (eg manufacturing, science and technology, agriculture, and so ) to replace the space / slack in the economy once the mining is gone. This is very hard, as: 1) mining is very capital intensive, 2) it employs a low number of people for the capital it requires, and 3) those people it employs are specialists and will need retraining. Our workforce, as it stands, is already very inflexible.

TBH; really, a government can aim to merely balance the books and be content that inflation and economic growth will decrease the debt in nominal terms over time, such that its real monetary value in the future is decreased. This is how countries like the US think that they can pay their debt going forward. Good luck to them, because they are screwed. But yeah, based on how the current inflation targeting works from the central bank, running a large surplus is not required; just balancing the books or even a deficit less than inflation and growth works.

Elfster; I think we are slowly heading towards end game with the GFC. Thanks to Bernanke (that is, QE) and China, we are seeing hot money flow into commodities and equities, and as a result we are seeing inflation around the world start to spike. We are not at the deflation v inflation end game yet, but the shit those guys are causing the world is starting to manifold itself. For example, increasing food costs are a combination of climate change and the aforementioned hot money leaking into world food prices, and as a result we see increased political unrest in Tunisia, Egypt, and so on. Thanks to the US, I think we now are looking at a potential world hyper inflationary event instead of a deflationary one. You can bet that the Fed won't have the balls to jack those rates once further inflation flows into the US, so the one thing I can see stopping them now is congress vetoing a QE3.
 

Elfster

Dave Cowper (27)
Our workforce, as it stands, is already very inflexible.


Elfster; I think we are slowly heading towards end game with the GFC. Thanks to Bernanke (that is, QE) and China, we are seeing hot money flow into commodities and equities, and as a result we are seeing inflation around the world start to spike. We are not at the deflation v inflation end game yet, but the shit those guys are causing the world is starting to manifold itself. For example, increasing food costs are a combination of climate change and the aforementioned hot money leaking into world food prices, and as a result we see increased political unrest in Tunisia, Egypt, and so on. Thanks to the US, I think we now are looking at a potential world hyper inflationary event instead of a deflationary one. You can bet that the Fed won't have the balls to jack those rates once further inflation flows into the US, so the one thing I can see stopping them now is congress vetoing a QE3.

Yes I fear that the only way the USA may see to get out of its current bind is by printing money, that is inflation. (Though some of the ideas from the Tea Party over there are abominably scary...). It almost raises the thought, what will be the world's defacto currency going forward? The USA dollar has nothing to back it, the Euro is problematic, the yen wouldn't be accepted by China, the renminbi is not really a free floating currency (but these days which one is), the GBP? In some ways a logical one would be (or would have been) the deutsche mark...but the germans are too busy propping up Europe and are, of course, in the Euro and thus like having a weaker currency for their exports.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
What annoys me is that stimulus money could have been better used to better prepare critical infrastructure for natural disasters. The Brisbane flood was a bit of a freak event and an unprecedented test of the dam’s capabilities but the risk of cyclone in Northern Australia is a year in year out concern. Infrastructure is being upgraded but it could have been quickened with the stimuli us. We still have infrastructure such as above ground power in these high risk areas for god’s sake.

Howard funded the gun buy back after Port Arthur with a levy and that was an act of popularity politics. Both sides do it and there is just no escaping that fact.

During the Howard years what gets me is the man love for Costello. He was terrible treasurer who rode the reforms of those before. Truth is that Australia has not had a good treasurer since Keating. Crikey Costello even tried to swipe Keating’s way with words. Current Senior Labor MP (Moana Pasifika)’s have been criticised for their lack of fortitude and rightfully so but Costello was one of the biggest wimps of a politician that we have had. The man tried to be a backdoor PM without facing the voting public because he was to afraid to face us the voting public. Even when the chance came up to lead he fled like a scalded dog.

I have no problem with this levy but I do have a problem with it cutting in at 50k. Those earning less than that have just as big a duty to sacrifice to get parts of the country back in working order. I know a lot of low income earners would completely agree with that. I have a problem with the slashing of climate change projects as that is irresponsible given the projected environmental outcomes they are trying to achieve. The trend of a higher frequency of more intense natural disasters tells me that these should be the last places to look at slashing expenditure. If the government wants to seriously cut expenditure then slash publically supported childcare and crack down on welfare abuse.

End of rant.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I never spoke out in support of a bank tax, and I don't think I would. The difference between mining and other tax revenue is that mining is a "temporary" (or finite) industry, and when it disappears in the future you see how badly it has distorted the economy (eg Dutch disease, which we have already seen in Australia). Let's face it, Australia's exports are propped up by the mining industry, we were saved by digging up dirt and China's increased speculative liquidity flowing into our commodity prices. It's sad to see our economy lampooned as digging up dirt and selling houses. It's hardly a sustainable future. I support the MRRT, but it needs to be invested in two things: 1) supporting industries distorted by the mining industry (and this is VERY hard), and 2) establish a fund to promote other industries (eg manufacturing, science and technology, agriculture, and so ) to replace the space / slack in the economy once the mining is gone. This is very hard, as: 1) mining is very capital intensive, 2) it employs a low number of people for the capital it requires, and 3) those people it employs are specialists and will need retraining. Our workforce, as it stands, is already very inflexible.

Problem is the MRRT is not going to be used for promoting other industries is it? It is going to be used to pay for the stimulus spending that, at least 50% of which was not required, due to you know what, the mining industry. Ironic isn't it?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Howard funded the gun buy back after Port Arthur with a levy and that was an act of popularity politics. Both sides do it and there is just no escaping that fact.

It wasn't too popular with his National party mates.
 
C

chief

Guest
Howard's gun laws stance was something which can only be defined as excellent. He told John Anderson (Nats Minister) of his plans, and what guns farmers need. It's something Howard should be proud of, and we should be proud of as a nation in years to come.

Myself and a friend were discussing the other day about Gillard, what she needs is a new Treasurer. What she needs is someone like Stephen Smith, or Bill Shorten possibly Greg Combet to come to the role. Smith was an adviser to Paul Keating, and he has high attention to detail, high class, and would have the ability to absolutely shred Joe Hockey to pieces. I can admit it, Swan hasn't been all that great, and he's not very liked either. However getting rid of him could force a by election in his marginal seat and that is not something the government wants, as I could see Swan losing it. They had the chance to axe Swan with Rudd, but they didn't.

I haven't really followed Bill Shorten, but apparently he's meant to be pretty good, and Greg Combet is all class, but he's part of the Left faction.

What are your thoughts? Could a change of Treasurer change the polls?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Chief, I'm pretty much in agreement there. Swan is a liability to this government and by extension, the country (Joe Hockey is on the other side of the fence as well). Shorten, Combet and Smith are all good operators and pretty sane blokes on the whole. They could scarcely do a worse job than Swan.
 

Moses

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Swan really is a boring prick, I find myself losing concentration after listening to him for 20 seconds
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
What Gilard needs is to tell all her media people to back off. She is a smart bird and just needs to be herself. If Smith has ties to Keating, then he is most certainly the man for the job. I like his no bullshit attitude and could not give a stuff if he is not very charismatic.
 
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