National U/16 Championships 2013

[Gooner]

The Mandarins of the SJRU would beg to differ with your assessment and have fought long and hard to retain the rather inappropriate title of Sydney Juniors for one of the teams at National Under 16 tournament.

The Sydney JRU team notianally represents the union from which most of the players are supposed to represent.
Sydney JRU is a body affiliated to the NSW Junior RU, as is NSW Country JRU.
NSW Schools RU is a body affiliated to the Australian Schools RU.

The three teams chosen to represent the best U16 rugby players that are in NSW are the "best" players from the 3 affiliated bodies. Supposedly.

The kicker is that there is a massive Venn diagram overlap between three associations, Schools, Country and Juniors.

All NSW Under 16 boys are at School. It is the Law. Therefore all U16 kids in NSW are eligible for selection into NSW Schools RU team, whether their School has a rugby team playing regular or irregular competitions, or whether they play regular Village club footy with SJRU or NSW Country JRU.
Many kids selected for Sydney Junior RU do NOT play in the Sydney JRU U16 competition. There are eligibility loopholes in SJRU material and NSW JRU State Championships material that allow this to occur. Many of the so called "Ghost Players" have played for many years with Sydney Juniors.
All kids playing Sydney JRU or NSW Country JRU rugby can try out for a slot with their School Association rep team, or the two AAGPS Presidents Invitation Teams.

The inclusion of SJRU and NSW Country JRU teams in the National U16 champs are to "recognise" the valuable contribution to Junior development that these organisations do. To restrict the Sydney Juniors team to those boys who are regularly playing Village club rugby in a SJRU U16 competition would mean that the SJRU team would be about as competitive as ACT JRU, Vic JRU or the WA JRU teams. There would be a very large number of "better" boys that are locked up in the GPS, CAS and ISA Schools system who would not get in front of National Talent Scouts, Development officers and selectors if there wasn't a second pathway option available to those boys.

ARU continue to propose that there should be a NSW I, NSW II and Combined states model for National U16. NSW RU (primarily bowing to NSW Country JRU, and Sydney JRU [NSW JRU pressure] ) continue to resist this proposal, and occasionally threaten to boycott the National U16 Competition. Perhaps ARU should call their bluff, and simply invite NSW Schools RU to send two U16 teams to Nationals.

According to snouts, the issue of the naming of the NSW teams at National U16's is rather moot, because there will be a major upheaval of the National U16's next year (2014). Whether this happens or not will depend on a reading of the Chicken entrails. Reform has been threatened for about as many years as the Waratahs have threatened to win the Super Rugby tournament.

HJ,

Which team has faired better between NSW School and SJR historically? What is the thinking on the teams selected this year?

 

[Boof]

Fair call CW. The aim of the tournament is not a reward for trialling, or playing club, or playing school, whatever. The National 16's, hosted and mostly funded by the ARU is to have the best players available to play in that tournament. They have no political bias. Obviously if the ARU have identified boys such as Jake Richards into their NGS squad, and he is holding his position there, then he is probably easily eligible to be included. The tournament isn't until the end of September, so I expect he will be fit. If he isn't then someone else gets a go.

I wasn't trying to be too hard on Jake or say he doesn't deserve selection I have know him and his family for a number of years. We are led to believe that the tournament its self is a selection trial, just trying to point out that looking from the outside in all dose not appear to be an even playing field and I do wish Jake all the best for further selection. If boys are not to be rewarded for "trialling, or playing club, or playing school, whatever " Then why are trials conducted, why not just have an identification program if the best boys have already been identified. I know the world is not played on a level playing field but these young men should at least be given the opportunity to start on the same platform, then its up to them.
The poor boys who fall under the ACIES or Country banner have to be absolute super stars to compete with good players in other teams or gain any recognition. It may be this level of School Boys that needs the restructure to truly have ALL talented players exposed to selectors and scouts.
Good luck to all those boys competing train hard and play fair and there is nothing more true than the "cream will eventually rise to the top "

Remember - Audentens fortuna invat

 

[Hugh Jarse]

HJ,

Which team has faired better between NSW School and SJR historically? What is the thinking on the teams selected this year?

Supposedly there has been a "gentlemens" agreement whereby Schools got to pick first one year, and the following year Juniors got the first pick. If the ARU and Aust Schools organisers aren't in the know, it can lead to difficulties in the draw.

With only two pools, they try to put the best NSW team up against the second best QLD team, and vice versa with the intent that the situation doesn't arise that QLD I play NSW Best (Juniors or Schools) in pool play, meaning that the final is either a Candy Cane (Qld Red vs Qld White because they are the best two teams of the 8 on show) or Qld Red vs NSW Second Best.

Results from the last two years, and the team lists this year would suggest that Schools have managed to get first pick in 2011, 2102 and 2013.

Some years Juniors have played a trial game against Schools as part of Tournament preparations. This didn't happen last year.

Remember that there is often a cigarette papers thickness between the I's and II's, and sometimes Coaches select "lesser skilled" kids in the I's because they have shown an ability to execute that Coaches game plan better than the "more skilled" boy who ends up in the II's.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up around whether the Schools are the best or not. It is a fantastic opportunity for all the boys selected (country boys as well).

As I have said elsewhere, give the boys a cuddle and say you are proud of them if they made it or not. If they made it, tell them to train hard, listen to their coaches and apply themselves because there are 200 other kids who didn't make it that will be training hard to try and make it for the Opens. If they didn't make it, tell them to train hard, listen to their coaches and apply themselves because when it comes time for Opens trials, there are 199 other kids training hard to try and knock off one of the 69 kids were selected in the U16s.

What is the thinking on the teams selected this year?
I didn't get to the Knox tournament. I saw most of the boys at St Lukes for JSC. I saw the ISA v CHS, and CCC vs Cnty vs AICES games.
IMHO the team that has most of the boys from Rats and Gordon JSC team, with a handfull of ISA boys (most of which are either Rats or Gordon boys anyway) is probably the stronger of the two teams. I think this is the Schools team this year, although I haven't cross referenced all the names.

That said, the Juniors team will not disappoint at Nationals. There are some very skilled footballers in that team. There is every chance that it will be a Juniors vs Schools final on the last day.

 

[Colin Windon]

Remember - Audentens fortuna invat

Is that Swiss for "fortune favours the banker"

 

[tomasi15]

ARU continue to propose that there should be a NSW I, NSW II and Combined states model for National U16. NSW RU (primarily bowing to NSW Country JRU, and Sydney JRU [NSW JRU pressure] ) continue to resist this proposal, and occasionally threaten to boycott the National U16 Competition. Perhaps ARU should call their bluff, and simply invite NSW Schools RU to send two U16 teams to Nationals.

I completely agree with the majority of your comments. However from my understanding - and I may be completely wrong. NSW Schools are the ones whom are holding out as far as the NSW I & NSW II proposal goes as they do not want to surrender their selection contribution & identity towards the U16s National tournament.

 

[Boof]

A

Remember - Audentens fortuna invat

Is that Swiss for "fortune favours the banker"

Actually code for your a tosser, I thought this forum was for all opinions but clearly not, you city folk are just a tad wrapped up in your self and the importance of a game played by our children where none of our opinions really matter in the end. I am just the mum of a couple of boys playing Country rugby clearly not of a high enough office to be here in this forum.

 

[Colin Windon]

A

Actually code for your a tosser, I thought this forum was for all opinions but clearly not, you city folk are just a tad wrapped up in your self and the importance of a game played by our children where none of our opinions really matter in the end. I am just the mum of a couple of boys playing Country rugby clearly not of a high enough office to be here in this forum.

Sorry......it was only an attempt at humour with no offence meant. Your opinions are just as valid as anyone's and as a country boy myself I can only wish your boys all the best for their rugby at whatever level they aspire to.

Lets return to topic.

 

[Rugby Mum]

More to the point, why would you play in a 16s tournament (which both played in last year) when you are playing with the big boys. It would be a step down in rugby quality. Give the shadows a run!

Because you can and you qualify. If you are selected to play in the opens for CS or NSW obviously you have been deserving and have performed better than those in that age group at the trials. Standing out in an older age group speaks for itself. I am sure these 15/16 year olds would not view playing for the 16's as a step down, but another opportunity to showcase their skills and play the game they love with their mates. Good on them. Don't limit them for their natural talent in their own age group.

 

[Rugby Mum]

PS At National Level it is about putting your best team forward.

 

[The Taxi Driver]

PS At National Level it is about putting your best team forward.

PSS That is stating the obvious.

Re Hutch and Kennewell, the only point being made is both boys have "made it" already so their need to impress isn't as strong as it is for others. Wouldn't it be good to cast the net a fraction wider to those boys who actually trialled, who are also 16 and who could benefit from being in a strong team. I am happy they are selected but I bet one won't play....

 

[Ruck & Maul 101]

PSS That is stating the obvious.

Re Hutch and Kennewell, the only point being made is both boys have "made it" already so their need to impress isn't as strong as it is for others. Wouldn't it be good to cast the net a fraction wider to those boys who actually trialled, who are also 16 and who could benefit from being in a strong team. I am happy they are selected but I bet one won't play..

Why do you say that?

 

[Gooner]

A

Actually code for your a tosser, I thought this forum was for all opinions but clearly not, you city folk are just a tad wrapped up in your self and the importance of a game played by our children where none of our opinions really matter in the end. I am just the mum of a couple of boys playing Country rugby clearly not of a high enough office to be here in this forum.

That was quite funny - I reckon your opinions would be very welcomed on the forum.

 

[Rugby Mum]

Why do you say that?

Maybe the possibility of one making Australian schoolboys team!!!!! Either way both these talents deserve a spot in their age group, and if one does not play then the next best called up.

 

[S'UP]

I wasn't trying to be too hard on Jake or say he doesn't deserve selection I have know him and his family for a number of years. We are led to believe that the tournament its self is a selection trial, just trying to point out that looking from the outside in all dose not appear to be an even playing field and I do wish Jake all the best for further selection. If boys are not to be rewarded for "trialling, or playing club, or playing school, whatever " Then why are trials conducted, why not just have an identification program if the best boys have already been identified. I know the world is not played on a level playing field but these young men should at least be given the opportunity to start on the same platform, then its up to them.
The poor boys who fall under the ACIES or Country banner have to be absolute super stars to compete with good players in other teams or gain any recognition. It may be this level of School Boys that needs the restructure to truly have ALL talented players exposed to selectors and scouts.
Good luck to all those boys competing train hard and play fair and there is nothing more true than the "cream will eventually rise to the top "

Remember - Audentens fortuna invat

The problem with some of the selections is that there appears to be too much emphasis placed on participation in the NGS and the JGP. These programs are designed to recognize potential in the individual and develop that, as the administrators of the JGP will tell you selection in the program isn’t a guarantee of selection in representative sides. However it would appear that selector do put a lot of faith in the fact that you are in the NGS or JPG. I agree with Boof try coming from ACIES or country you do have to be a super star. On that point try being the kid who plays club rugby only, your chances of getting past district selection is next to zero and selection in the JGP is just about next to zero. If you don’t go to a rugby playing private school or a public sports high you have next to no hope regardless of how good you might be.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The problem with some of the selections is that there appears to be too much emphasis placed on participation in the NGS and the JGP. These programs are designed to recognize potential in the individual and develop that, as the administrators of the JGP will tell you selection in the program isn’t a guarantee of selection in representative sides. However it would appear that selector do put a lot of faith in the fact that you are in the NGS or JPG. I agree with Boof try coming from ACIES or country you do have to be a super star. On that point try being the kid who plays club rugby only, your chances of getting past district selection is next to zero and selection in the JGP is just about next to zero. If you don’t go to a rugby playing private school or a public sports high you have next to no hope regardless of how good you might be.

Were the boys you have in mind nominated for JGS?
One thing about both these programs is that they do give the gurus a chance to see a lot more of a kid than the state champs do, albeit not in games.

 

[S'UP]

Were the boys you have in mind nominated for JGS?
One thing about both these programs is that they do give the gurus a chance to see a lot more of a kid than the state champs do, albeit not in games.

JGS as I understand it is now selected by the JGP talent scouts and boys are given invatations to attend over the summer months. Then there is a selection day where the remaining boys who would like to be considered, nominate, turn up and try and shine more than the other 50 boys the talent scouts are looking at on the day. Not easy. By the time the state champs come around the gold scouts are only watching the people on their list, so again you would need to standout in the crowd to make the cut. It would surprise if a JGP scout actually attended any club rugby games.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

JGS as I understand it is now selected by the JGP talent scouts and boys are given invatations to attend over the summer months. Then there is a selection day where the remaining boys who would like to be considered, nominate, turn up and try and shine more than the other 50 boys the talent scouts are looking at on the day. Not easy. By the time the state champs come around the gold scouts are only watching the people on their list, so again you would need to standout in the crowd to make the cut. It would surprise if a JGP scout actually attended any club rugby games.

Yeah sorry - I think I should have said JGP instead of JGS - I get confused.
JGP do add kids during the summer I gather.
I'm getting the feeling that there's a backlash coming from some of the schools re these programs. This could be a god send for kids at schools with lesser or no rugby programs.
Have to say I have no experience with which to contradict your impressions.

 

[the baz]

The Mandarins of the SJRU would beg to differ with your assessment and have fought long and hard to retain the rather inappropriate title of Sydney Juniors for one of the teams at National Under 16 tournament.

The Sydney JRU team notianally represents the union from which most of the players are supposed to represent.
Sydney JRU is a body affiliated to the NSW Junior RU, as is NSW Country JRU.
NSW Schools RU is a body affiliated to the Australian Schools RU.

The three teams chosen to represent the best U16 rugby players that are in NSW are the "best" players from the 3 affiliated bodies. Supposedly.

The kicker is that there is a massive Venn diagram overlap between three associations, Schools, Country and Juniors.

All NSW Under 16 boys are at School. It is the Law. Therefore all U16 kids in NSW are eligible for selection into NSW Schools RU team, whether their School has a rugby team playing regular or irregular competitions, or whether they play regular Village club footy with SJRU or NSW Country JRU.
Many kids selected for Sydney Junior RU do NOT play in the Sydney JRU U16 competition. There are eligibility loopholes in SJRU material and NSW JRU State Championships material that allow this to occur. Many of the so called "Ghost Players" have played for many years with Sydney Juniors.
All kids playing Sydney JRU or NSW Country JRU rugby can try out for a slot with their School Association rep team, or the two AAGPS Presidents Invitation Teams.

The inclusion of SJRU and NSW Country JRU teams in the National U16 champs are to "recognise" the valuable contribution to Junior development that these organisations do. To restrict the Sydney Juniors team to those boys who are regularly playing Village club rugby in a SJRU U16 competition would mean that the SJRU team would be about as competitive as ACT JRU, Vic JRU or the WA JRU teams. There would be a very large number of "better" boys that are locked up in the GPS, CAS and ISA Schools system who would not get in front of National Talent Scouts, Development officers and selectors if there wasn't a second pathway option available to those boys.

ARU continue to propose that there should be a NSW I, NSW II and Combined states model for National U16. NSW RU (primarily bowing to NSW Country JRU, and Sydney JRU [NSW JRU pressure] ) continue to resist this proposal, and occasionally threaten to boycott the National U16 Competition. Perhaps ARU should call their bluff, and simply invite NSW Schools RU to send two U16 teams to Nationals.

According to snouts, the issue of the naming of the NSW teams at National U16's is rather moot, because there will be a major upheaval of the National U16's next year (2014). Whether this happens or not will depend on a reading of the Chicken entrails. Reform has been threatened for about as many years as the Waratahs have threatened to win the Super Rugby tournament.

The Nationals need a revamp altogether Hugh. Its a wizzing competition between the respective bodies. The major players seem to have put themselves into "positions of power" with the re-introduction of Australian junior rugby union (still dont know what they do?) or being a VP, SEC, TREASURER ETC of nsw junior rugby union in order to push for what they want, not whats best for the competition. You are 100% right in saying the ARU need to step in, make a decision, and amend the nationals for the betterment of that event.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^ Tell me more about the Australian Junior Rugby Union, the baz.

I have tried to stimulate discussion about this body in this thread:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/australian-junior-rugby-union.11657/

Probably should have started it in the Schoolboys Forum rather than Rugby Discussion.

Very little is known about this rather secretive almost Masonic body. Seems to be a happy hunting ground for former NSW JRU executives.

 

[Tahspark]

Snip...

What is the thinking on the teams selected this year?
I didn't get to the Knox tournament. I saw most of the boys at St Lukes for JSC. I saw the ISA v CHS, and CCC vs Cnty vs AICES games.
IMHO the team that has most of the boys from Rats and Gordon JSC team, with a handfull of ISA boys (most of which are either Rats or Gordon boys anyway) is probably the stronger of the two teams. I think this is the Schools team this year, although I haven't cross referenced all the names.

That said, the Juniors team will not disappoint at Nationals. There are some very skilled footballers in that team. There is every chance that it will be a Juniors vs Schools final on the last day.

This cross referencing exercise reveals that in the SJRU team there are 9 Warringah and 6 Gordon players who competed in this year's State Cup final.

The Schools team has 2 Rats and 1 Highlanders players from the teams who competed in that final.

However, add to the Schools team 2 more Rats (Kennewell & Porter) and 2 more Highlanders (Hutchison & McGregor) who have been part of previous JSC campaigns for their respective teams. Also add Lough (dominant in Gordon's U15s State Cup win over Eastwood). That brings the Schools tally to 4 Warringah & 4 Gordon players.

The NSW U15s in 2012 dominated their Qld opponents running out winners 24-0 (with a couple of NSW bombed tries). If that formline can be reproduced over Qld then we might well see Hugh Jarse's wish for a Juniors v Schools final come to fruition.

My prediction is that this all NSW final would see such widely exaggerated scorelines as the recent Pres A v ISA 5-5 and Pres A v Pres B 22-21 clashes.