NSW JRU State Championships & Representative Teams 2012

[Newbie]

HJ,

On the money again I see. Well constructed arguments! Accordingly, and as per usual, i will throw my opinion in as well.

As some of the more frequent members to this forum know, I often mix in the league circles where junior reps is concerned. As a consequence I often get to speak to 'Dual Coders' who have elected to pursue the league path!

Personally I find this intriguing as I believe rugby to be the code of choice (as it presents more professional avenues - especially internationally). Consequently I often ask such lads the the question of "why league?"

The answers do vary however they do share some common themes. Firstly, the lack of competition at the 16-18 year age bracket; secondly, perceived bias; and finally, the lack of grass roots development!

The first speaks for itself and you only need to get on the SJRU's 'BUDDAH' as proof! The number of teams involved is significantly low in comparison to the other football codes! For example the the SJRU U/17 competition only had 5 teams in its 'Division A' comp (and only another 5 in the 'B's). And the BJRU is more or less in the same boat. Compare this to the participation in Sydney and Brisbane junior league competitions and you will be blown away!

The second theme with respect to bias is quite interesting, especially where the Polynesian community is concerned! From my discussions there a quite a few parents who have turned their back on national tradition and now prefer their boys to play league! After questioning one such dad who i knew, and whose boy happens to be a star in the making, he informed me that he was tired of watching his son (with his mainly Polynesian team) being penalised for his physicality!

With respect to 'Development' I would genuinely love to know the frequency of ARU and NSWRU visits to schools in greater Western Sydney? For mine both supervening bodies are not doing enough with respect to exploiting this gold mine of potential talent! IMHO they are not even in the race when it comes to competing for the hearts and minds of such kids!

And now to tie this back into HJ's posts; how can the NSWJRU and the QLDJRU expect to field a competitive U/17 national team when it doesn't even have high calibre competitions from which to draw the required necessary talent? I'm sorry but rugby seems to be dying a slow and incremental death in this country and will continue to do so until the grass roots problem is arrested.

 

[Newbie]

After seeing the photos of the NSWJRU team selections I went and reviewed the team to see how many of the same lads were selected for higher rep honours in the schools this year! Not many!

Admittedly they are only u/17's, however the very name 'U/17 NSWJRU' connotes that such players should have been right up there when it came to NSWSRU selections! Suffice to say the SJRU (which always gets the lions share of the selections) does not have an overly abundant talent pool from which to draw players! Saddening to be honest!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

After seeing the photos of the NSWJRU team selections I went and reviewed the team to see how many of the same lads were selected for higher rep honours in the schools this year! Not many!

Admittedly they are only u/17's, however the very name 'U/17 NSWJRU' connotes that such players should have been right up there when it came to NSWSRU selections! Suffice to say the SJRU (which always gets the lions share of the selections) does not have an overly abundant talent pool from which to draw players! Saddening to be honest!

From observations, the GPS Schools locking up their 1st XV talent, Most CAS discourage 1st XV playing club, ISA schools 1st XV kids seem to have some representation in club land, some CHS stars are playing Colts and not sure if they would be eligible for Junior Rugby Union representation from Colts. There really are slim pickings from the best available Under 17 talent in Sydney rugbydom. Problem is probably not as marked in NSW Country.

The naming of this team as NSW JRU Under 17's does suggest that they are the best U17 players in NSW. The reality is that this team is not the equivalent of a Shute Shield Rep team. They are more like the equivalent of the NSW Subbies Rep team.

 

[I like to watch]

The players selected are "leftovers"
There are players in this squad who did not make their School 1st's.
It is a good demonstration of the strength in Village Rugby at this age.

 

[zulumuster]

I find it quite amazing that a couple of people who profess to love and want to promote Rugby have allowed themselves to make such negative comments about U17 year old boys. These boys have worked very hard throughout the season to front up to both Saturday 1st XV games and training and also to their club games and training. They then performed well enough to be noticed and selected at the State Championships and Sydney/Country Game.
To be honest I have to think that a couple of you are perhaps just throwing mud because someone you know wasn't selected, perhaps one of your own boys?
Well whatever the reason I think you need to have a good hard look at yourselves for posting comments like "the players selected are "leftovers", its "a subbies rep team" etc.
It would seem that a couple of you have real beefs with the NSWJRU and for that matter the NSWRU. If you had the guts to do so and you have a real issue then you should not hide behind a fake name on a website and go and run for office. If not I don't think its appropriate for you to try and score your points here, especially when you are in effect questioning the talent of some if not all of the boys selected.
I have deleted the photos I posted as I am horrified that someone would use them to then hurl abuse at the boys pictured. I won't be posting anything like that again and I'll be writing to Matt to let him know why.
Wake up to yourselves. I'm thoroughly disgusted with you and just can't believe you would stoop so low.

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... ... There really are slim pickings from the best available Under 17 talent in Sydney rugbydom. Problem is probably not as marked in NSW Country.

The naming of this team as NSW JRU Under 17's does suggest that they are the best U17 players in NSW ... ... ... ... ... ... They are more like the equivalent of the NSW Subbies Rep team.

HJ,

I agree with your whole statement, especially the points I have extracted above! So bloody true!

 

[Newbie]

From my understanding there has been a change in guard at the SJRU! Hopefully they can bring it back to a decent standard!

I'm sorry but for mine there is a need to convert some of the positions within the SJRU to paid roles (i.e. $$$$$$).

Each league district has a paid official co-ordinating their respective competitions on a full-time basis.

Like I keep reiterating in other threads; maybe when the ARU is tired of having its arse handed it to it by NZ every year they will review the grass roots competitions.

 

[zulumuster]

HJ,

I agree with your whole statement, especially the points I have extracted above! So bloody true!

I shake my Head. Unbelievable.

 

[barbarian]

Zulu we don't allow posters to 'hurl abuse' at schoolboys. However this is not what is happening here.

No individual names have been mentioned, and no-one has been viciously attacked.

Whilst we don't allow abuse we also don't stifle robust and valid debate. The debate as to whether these boys are really the best Under 17s in NSW is valid, and as long as it stays civil and doesn't mention any names specifically should be allowed to continue.
.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

The make-up of the Under 17's is a representation of the best players available out of the club scene at that age. As such they can be proud of being the rep team for the NSW Junior Rugby Union, an association responsible for running and organising the junior competitions, outside the Schools program, in NSW. The team does not represent the best U17 players in NSW, it is the best u17 players out of the club scene.

it is true that many of the schools players are prohibited or discouraged from playing juniors by the private schools and many of the public schools players are involved in another game but you can do your best and have great fun and experience in achieving these rep honours. I'm sure these players will do NSW proud on the day

 

[I like to watch]

I find it quite amazing that a couple of people who profess to love and want to promote Rugby have allowed themselves to make such negative comments about U17 year old boys. These boys have worked very hard throughout the season to front up to both Saturday 1st XV games and training and also to their club games and training. They then performed well enough to be noticed and selected at the State Championships and Sydney/Country Game.......

Don't be so precious, most of these kids would acknowledge that the players selected in the Schools side are better performed than they are.
Which is to be expected when the Sydney "A" comp consists of half the number of teams that Joeys fields each week.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Zulumaster,

Are you seriously trying to tell me that these are the best under 17 year old rugby players in NSW?

Nothing against the boys, they are the absolutely best of the best available from the SJRU and country Juniors competitions, and I agree that they do get out there and try their guts out week in week out, some for both School and club, some Mungo and club, some manage to balance all 3.

I have no difficulty with them going on alternating tours to QLD and the ACT. I am happy to buy a raffle ticket or two to assist the fundraising for those tours.

The suggested National JRU Tournament is what gets up my goat, particularly the costs and proposed funding solution.

What do you feel about the AJRU spending $100k on an administrator to make this happen, and then apparently compulsorily levy all junior clubs for the balance of costs?

Going by the proposed funding model for the National Tournament proposed by AJRU of which I can find almost zero information on, so going on what is posted here, I am not all that happy to have to put my hand in my pocket or fundraise for a Tournament where the State will not be represented by the best rugby players within our borders.

What sort of reaction do they expect that they will receive from junior village clubs that only run teams from Under 6 to Under 10’s (or Under 12’s)? In these cases there is NO chance of trying to sell the argument of one of the graduates from that club could eventually make NSW JRU Under 17’s because the graduates from those clubs typically end up being locked up in the GPS model.

I have had Junior Jarses travel all the rugby development pathway from Under 6's to Colts, including U17 and Opens playing both School 1st XV and Club so think I am in a position to comment. I’ve still got some working their way up the pathway. No bitterness about non selection from anyone in Chez Jarse. There have been some fine players selected in the past, this year and there will be some more next year. In all honesty the boys know that they are not the states best players but they are the best from the Sydney and country Juniors playing pool. Big difference.

As it is now compulsory to attend School in NSW until 17 then the vast majority of last years NSW JRU Under 17’s would have reenrolled for Schooling in 2012, and therefore would have been eligible to represent NSW Schools this year. What % of those managed to get selected for NSW I or NSW II in the Australian Schools Under 18 Tournament at Riverview in July. Supposedly these are the best rugby players Under 18 attending School in NSW. If they all did then I will withdraw my NSW Subbies Team comment.

I do have a beef with the structure and procedures of NSW RU, NSWJRU, SJRU and AJRU. Follow my posting history, and you should see that in doing so I have played the ball and not the man, and certainly not denigrated any individual player. I fear that these kids are collateral damage in what appears to be a money wasting ego stroking exercise. I have stood for office and "done time" on the inside of some of those bodies above. Have you? I hope you are or intend to do so, then you would be well positioned to provide the transparency that so many of us seek.

Should the main objective of the AJRU be the establishment of a National Under 17 tournament, when there is already a Under 16 and Under 18 tournament that are established, funded and part of the published ARU Pathway to Gold?

If a National Under 17 tournament was important to player development, surely this need would have been recognised and published in the ARU Literature. I couldn’t find it anywhere.

If an end of season tour for a competition representational team is a high priority then by all means organise one of these. You don’t need the national body to endorse this and arrange it. There are adequate abilities at State level. They have been doing it for a while and by all accounts are quite good at it as well.

Sydney Juniors goes to Opens (Under 18) Grade. Shouldn’t there be a SJRU Under 18 team, NSW JRU Under 18 team and tour as well as the final “farewell” or graduation from Junior ranks?

What should the AJRU be doing? What are its objectives? What is the constitution? If you had $100k available, what would you spend it on that would achieve the best bang for the buck to achieve the objectives of the AJRU?
Feel free to contribute to discussion of this on the Australian Junior Rugby Union Thread under the Rugby Discussion Forum.

 

[Man on the hill]

Zulumaster,

Are you seriously trying to tell me that these are the best under 17 year old rugby players in NSW?

Nothing against the boys, they are the absolutely best of the best available from the SJRU and country Juniors competitions, and I agree that they do get out there and try their guts out week in week out, some for both School and club, some Mungo and club, some manage to balance all 3.

I have no difficulty with them going on alternating tours to QLD and the ACT. I am happy to buy a raffle ticket or two to assist the fundraising for those tours.

The suggested National JRU Tournament is what gets up my goat, particularly the costs and proposed funding solution.

What do you feel about the AJRU spending $100k on an administrator to make this happen, and then apparently compulsorily levy all junior clubs for the balance of costs?

Going by the proposed funding model for the National Tournament proposed by AJRU of which I can find almost zero information on, so going on what is posted here, I am not all that happy to have to put my hand in my pocket or fundraise for a Tournament where the State will not be represented by the best rugby players within our borders.

What sort of reaction do they expect that they will receive from junior village clubs that only run teams from Under 6 to Under 10’s (or Under 12’s)? In these cases there is NO chance of trying to sell the argument of one of the graduates from that club could eventually make NSW JRU Under 17’s because the graduates from those clubs typically end up being locked up in the GPS model.

I have had Junior Jarses travel all the rugby development pathway from Under 6's to Colts, including U17 and Opens playing both School 1st XV and Club so think I am in a position to comment. I’ve still got some working their way up the pathway. No bitterness about non selection from anyone in Chez Jarse. There have been some fine players selected in the past, this year and there will be some more next year. In all honesty the boys know that they are not the states best players but they are the best from the Sydney and country Juniors playing pool. Big difference.

As it is now compulsory to attend School in NSW until 17 then the vast majority of last years NSW JRU Under 17’s would have reenrolled for Schooling in 2012, and therefore would have been eligible to represent NSW Schools this year. What % of those managed to get selected for NSW I or NSW II in the Australian Schools Under 18 Tournament at Riverview in July. Supposedly these are the best rugby players Under 18 attending School in NSW. If they all did then I will withdraw my NSW Subbies Team comment.

I do have a beef with the structure and procedures of NSW RU, NSWJRU, SJRU and AJRU. Follow my posting history, and you should see that in doing so I have played the ball and not the man, and certainly not denigrated any individual player. I fear that these kids are collateral damage in what appears to be a money wasting ego stroking exercise. I have stood for office and "done time" on the inside of some of those bodies above. Have you? I hope you are or intend to do so, then you would be well positioned to provide the transparency that so many of us seek.

Should the main objective of the AJRU be the establishment of a National Under 17 tournament, when there is already a Under 16 and Under 18 tournament that are established, funded and part of the published ARU Pathway to Gold?

If a National Under 17 tournament was important to player development, surely this need would have been recognised and published in the ARU Literature. I couldn’t find it anywhere.

If an end of season tour for a competition representational team is a high priority then by all means organise one of these. You don’t need the national body to endorse this and arrange it. There are adequate abilities at State level. They have been doing it for a while and by all accounts are quite good at it as well.

Sydney Juniors goes to Opens (Under 18) Grade. Shouldn’t there be a SJRU Under 18 team, NSW JRU Under 18 team and tour as well as the final “farewell” or graduation from Junior ranks?

What should the AJRU be doing? What are its objectives? What is the constitution? If you had $100k available, what would you spend it on that would achieve the best bang for the buck to achieve the objectives of the AJRU?
Feel free to contribute to discussion of this on the Australian Junior Rugby Union Thread under the Rugby Discussion Forum.

 

[zulumuster]

Zulu we don't allow posters to 'hurl abuse' at schoolboys. However this is not what is happening here.

No individual names have been mentioned, and no-one has been viciously attacked.

Whilst we don't allow abuse we also don't stifle robust and valid debate. The debate as to whether these boys are really the best Under 17s in NSW is valid, and as long as it stays civil and doesn't mention any names specifically should be allowed to continue.
.

Thanks for your reply Barbarian. I get your point about individual naming of players. I actually think what has gone on above is actually worse though. I posted two photos of some of the team being presented their jerseys and previous thread posts list the team as it stood on announcement (there have been changes).
So really they have been named and there was an accompanying photo. They are able to read that a group of self appointed experts (presumably because they post a lot on this forum) thinks your just a "leftover" is in my opinion not what this site should be about. The team hasn't even played a game, yet the "experts" on this forum have pre-judged them and then tarnished them as "leftovers". Surely we should be encouraging young athletes rather than tearing them down?

I have shown a few of the other parents of some of the boys in the team what's been said and in short they too are disappointed.

I have removed the photos and lesson well and truly learned, there wont be any more photos, videos or posts on this site.

 

[I like to watch]

"Leftovers" was a poor choice of wording, so I am happy to apologise.
The point of my post was the weakness of the Sydney comp for this age group, which I believe is a valid point.
I wish all those involved the very best,and hope they enjoy their experience with the side.
However, you are in denial if you believe this side is on par with the Schools side.If you also think this comp is fine as it currently stands then you are delusional.

 

[Newbie]

Zulu,

No-one is having a crack at the boys selected; we are merely highlighting the problem with the current structures!

The selection of this team exemplifies this point!

As stated by others in this thread; the name NSWJRU itself connotes that this team is the best U/17 team NSW has to offer! However I'm sorry if you disagree but it is not!

As a result I believe that the custodians of NSW and Australian rugby should be doing more to rectify the problem that presently exists within the junior/school structure!

I personally believe there is a need for reconciliation (i.e a system similar to NZ)

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

If you want system similar to NZ then you have no club rugby up to the age of 18 - it is all schools under this age

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

The other issue I have with some of the comments is if the system was to be "rectified" and the "best" 17 year olds were available then you would possibly have the same players representing their school, their school association, their State at school level, their club zone, Sydney Juniors and NSW Juniors.

i don't know why but this just would be wrong. The more boys who, in their junior time, get to experience the thrill of rep footy and stoke their desire for the game the better the pool of depth that can be developed. For in fact the boys selected in this team aren't bad footballers, just in someone elses opinion they aren't as good as someone else

The players I feel sorry for, though, are those players who play in their schools first XV and maybe even their Association team but don't get to go further along the rep pathway due to the school "policy" of denying these boys a chance to play club rugby and therefore get the chance of making a state side and experience the NSW v Qld thing.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There are elements of the NZ system that could be implemented into the Aust system, however as Iluvmyfooty has pointed out there is no club footy at high school ages because over there there is only School Rugby available, and rugby is offerred in nearly all schools.

Junior Club Rugby fills an important role in Australia because regular weekend games are only offerred in a very small number of schools, and the majority of schools do not have rugby as an optional activity. The only viable rugby outlet for many kids outside the GPS, CAS, and ISA system (and the majority of teenage boys in Sydney fall into the "outside GPS, CAS and ISA" category) is the Sydney Juniors Village club system.

Much of the initial "development" of the GPS et al rugby rock stars occurs courtesy of the Sydney JRU framework. The "reward" for the Juniors from the Schools is that the Schools lock the vast majority of these boys out of the SJRU U16 and above age groups.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The other issue I have with some of the comments is if the system was to be "rectified" and the "best" 17 year olds were available then you would possibly have the same players representing their school, their school association, their State at school level, their club zone, Sydney Juniors and NSW Juniors.

...snip.

This is exactly the BS that happens every year with the Under 16's. Country, SJRU and NSW Schools basically fight over the same pool of kids to represent their "conference" for the U16 Australian Champs.

The Queensland approach of independently selecting two dedicated QLD teams regardless of the conference of origin of the kids seems to be the most open and transparent. NSW manages to do this at Open (U18) Schools level where NSW I and NSW II are selected with the "leftovers" (not meant in a derogatory way) from all states forming a Combined States selection.

If the intention is to hold an Australian U17 championship tournament then why select one just team from NSW (and then restrict participation in that one NSW team to the playing stock from the JRU numbers competition only). Be fair dinkm about it and sent two teams and throw the "leftovers" into the kitty for possible selection into a Combined States Barbarians team. If a limited selection is going to represent their "conference" against their respective QLD "conference" and ACT, VIC and WA "conferences" then don't market it as the Australian Championship and then further expect all kids playing rugby to subsidise it.

Get the AJRU mitts off it and let it be run as it has been for a number of years, and quite successfully I might add. Simply a series of representative games administered by mutual agreement between NSW JRU, QLD JRU and ACT JRU.

The whole thing (Australian U17 championship NOT the concept of a NSWJRU U17 team playing a couple of games agaisnt QLD and ACT JRU U17 teams) smacks of a bureaucracy looking for a purpose in life.