Obl

[#1 Tah]

I can't believe nobody had done this yet, alas it falls to me to put 1 and 1 together

http://bit.ly/jmR3E4

I couldnt listen to the america song without singing:

"Waratahs, FUCK YEAH!"

 

[Scarfman]

Just the usual story-shifting that is endemic to US Govt:

In Washington, fresh details were being revealed by the White House, some which contradicted the earlier version of events surrounding the killing of their most wanted man.

In the immediate hours after Bin Laden's death, US officials had briefed that he had put up a fight and shot at the Seal 6 team that had stormed the second and third floors of his hideout. Other details suggested he had used one of his wives as a human shield.

The White House confirmed that neither was true. Bin Laden was unarmed, was shot in the head and chest, and his wife had been wounded in the leg while rushing towards the special forces before he was killed.

The photographs of his body, the spokesman said, were probably too gruesome to be released.

Another narrative to change somewhat concerned the property itself. Up close, Bin Laden's house, a tall, unlovely piece of architecture, towering over the policemen guarding the gate, was not quite the million dollar mansion described by officials. The walls were high, certainly, but not unusually so for north-western Pakistan, where privacy is jealously guarded. The paint was peeling, there was no air conditioning.

Ask an American citizen in 10 years time whether OBL used his wife as a human shield and they will say 'yes, it was in the news'.

 

[Scarfman]

OK, clearly I have a bug up my arse about this, but I do side with many people in the Middle East who find American exceptionalism grotesque and offensive.

US Forces have now declared that OBL was unarmed when killed. They also acknowledge that they had no authority to be in Pakistan. Any other country on earth wold have to answer a few questions about the action's legallity. [Actually - any other country except Israel - see the Gaza flotilla action for details]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/03/osama-bin-laden-killing-legality

Of course, we can say that OBL deserved it, and probably did. But the law doesn't work like that. The USA routinely operates outside of international law (for example, Guantanamo) and the rest of the world is too intimidated to make a peep.

I'm might leave this subject now, since you don't need me lecturing to you.

 

[Scarfman]

In fact, the best way for me to leave is to hand you over to someone who actually knows what they're talking about: Jason Burke. He's written books on Al Qa'ida and Pakistan, and you can find him at the Observer, on YouTube, Wikipedia, etc. A very reasonable and informed fellow. He certainly thinks that OBL was killed, so I'll go with that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/03/osama-bin-laden-al-qaida?intcmp=239

 

[Rob42]

Scarfman, I don't mind your lecturing - isn't that your day job anyway? Yes, the wife story did sound to me like one of the gratuitous extra details added in for PR value, which was foolish.

But I've also heard the suggestion that an essential part of sovereignity in international law is not allowing your territory to be used to prepare for attacks on other countries, and therefore the US would be entitled to go in unannounced to remove a threat to their country. Not that the ordinary Pakistani is necessarily going to care about the finer points of international law.

 

[Ruggo]

They are reporting that he was unarmed. Why was ne not taken alive if only to add credibillity to the varification process. It doesn't sit comfortable that an unarmed man was shot dead at close range without being given the right to due process. This whole thing stinks bad and takes hypocracy to a new level.

 

[Elfster]

The whole thing will probably leave many questions unanswered. No-one really knows what happened or the reason for the actual killing. Perhaps the soldiers involved felt that in the immediate situation (for their own safety or time reasons) it was easier to kill him than subdue him and get him out. Imagine the result if they had attacked the compound and left him there.

For me one of the more unpleasant or unnecessary things have been some of the scenes of unbridled joy or celebration of the death. Not very dignified and just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[barbarian]

I am not opposed to him being killed point blank as opposed to being captured. What due process does he deserve? The right to a fair trial? FFS. It would turn into a circus. Putting a bullet into his skull was the right thing I reckon.

As for the celebration, I think its a bit over the top. Especially considering the guy has done fuck all over the last 10 years, it isn't like he was an evil overlord who had subjected America to years of unending torment.

There will be plenty of unanswered questions, and nothing the US does will really help that. Will a picture help? I doubt it, as no-one knows what Osama looked like, especially with a big hole in his melon. People will just accuse the US of showing a photo of a random dead mid-50s Arab guy with a beard.

 

[mark_s]

I am surprised more people aren’t calling this an assassination. I am sure there was a theoretical possibility that he would be taken alive but that would of created so many problems I think it would have been a million to one chance.

So which of the following will occur first:

a) Al Qaeda claim that the US killed the wrong person and OBL is either alive or was killed ages ago.
b) The video footage of the attack gets “leaked” to wikileaks
c) Al Qaeda attack a major western target in response
d) A computer game based on the attack on OBL’s compound gets released

 

[Scotty]

I have almost no doubt now that the reason for pictures and video not being released is due to the method of his execution. I would expect both he and his wife were pumped full of navy seal bullets, and this is the main reason the US don't want to release the footage or photographs.

I have had additional confirmation of his death from a non media source. Not 100% reliable, but still adds to the weight of evidence.

 

[Ruggo]

I am not opposed to him being killed point blank as opposed to being captured. What due process does he deserve? The right to a fair trial? FFS. It would turn into a circus. Putting a bullet into his skull was the right thing I reckon.As for the celebration, I think its a bit over the top. Especially considering the guy has done fuck all over the last 10 years, it isn't like he was an evil overlord who had subjected America to years of unending torment.

There will be plenty of unanswered questions, and nothing the US does will really help that. Will a picture help? I doubt it, as no-one knows what Osama looked like, especially with a big hole in his melon. People will just accuse the US of showing a photo of a random dead mid-50s Arab guy with a beard.

Who decides who deserves a bullet in the head and who doesn't? I don't disagree with your sentiment Ba ba but this is a really important question. I don't see these events bettering any of us as human beings. The future is going to be as ugly as the past as long as this shit continues.

Geoffrey Robinson has a fair view on this whole mess.

Bin Laden's killing a 'perversion of justice'
Updated 1 hour 9 minutes ago


Geoffrey Robertson says Osama bin Laden should have been brought to trial. (AFP: Leon Neal, file photo)

Video: Robertson slams bin Laden killing (ABC News Breakfast) Video: Witness speaks about bin Laden operation (ABC News) Audio: US backtracks on claims bin Laden was armed (AM) Audio: Pakistan in trouble at home and abroad (AM) Audio: Triumphant language upsets human rights advocates (AM) Related Story: US admits bin Laden unarmed when shot Related Story: White House undecided on releasing bin Laden photos Related Story: Pakistan 'embarrassed' by intelligence failure Related Story: Australia urged to rethink Pakistan military aid High-profile Australian QC (Quade Cooper) and human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson says the killing of Osama bin Laden is a perversion of justice that has effectively given the terrorist mastermind what he craved.

In the days since bin Laden's death, the US has been forced to backtrack and clarify details of the killing, with a picture now emerging of a targeted assassination.

This morning, White House spokesman Jay Carney confirmed bin Laden was unarmed when US commandos raided his compound in Pakistan and shot him above his left eye, reportedly blowing away a section of his skull.

Mr Robertson has told ABC News 24 bin Laden should have been brought to trial and his death has made him look like a martyr.

"The way to demystify this man is not to kill him and have the iconic picture of his body," he said.

"The way to demystify him, rather than to these soulful pictures of the tall man on the mountain, is to put him on trial, to see him as a hateful and hate-filled old man screaming from the dock or lying in the witness box.

"That way the true inhumanity of the man is exposed."

Mr Robertson says US president Barack Obama has been sloppy with his use of the word "justice" and questions need to be answered about whether there was an explicit order to kill bin Laden.

"It's not justice. It's a perversion of the term. Justice means taking someone to court, finding them guilty upon evidence and sentencing them," he said.

"This man has been subject to summary execution, and what is now appearing after a good deal of disinformation from the White House is it may well have been a cold-blooded assassination."

Mr Robertson says it is an irony that the US has given bin Laden what he craved.

"The last thing he wanted was to be put on trial, to be convicted and to end his life in a prison farm in upstate New York," he said.

"What he wanted was exactly what he got - to be shot in mid-jihad and get a fast track to paradise and the Americans have given him that.

"It's an irony that it's a win-win situation for both Osama and Obama. The latter gets re-elected as president and the former gets his fast track to paradise."

The US is still debating whether to release what it says are "gruesome" photos of bin Laden's corpse.

The White House also has pictures of bin Laden's burial at sea, which it says adhered to Muslim traditions.

But Mr Robertson says there will be consequences of releasing any of the photos.

"The method of disposing his body at night without an autopsy is also questionable," he said.

"They've got a photograph but they're not releasing that for fear that it'll become iconic, rather like the picture of Che Guevara on the slab.

"But if governments kill people, that's one of the consequences."

Mr Robertson says there now needs to be an inquiry into the death.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/04/3207266.htm

 

[Ignoto]

How do you expect Osama to be given a fair trial?

More importantly, imagine the shitfest that would happen if they took him alive and tried to move him around.

You'd have his cult followers trying to break him out in whatever way they could. Not only would this put more lives at risk, cost more money, but what happened if he escaped?

Additionally, how can anyone presume that hes innocent? He's publicly said on Video he was responsible for the killings, that more would happen etc

 

[Gagger]

Anyone else noticed the number of times they've mentioned interrogations at Guantanamo lead to the tracking of the courier?

It's all justified now

 

[Bowside]

I dont think its fair to say he should have been taken alive. In a situation like this, he could have easily had a bomb or a concealed weapon or something. The report I heard was that while he and his wife were unarmed, they did not surrender but rather advanced towards the navy seals, at which point they seals opened fire. I also think this is too big an issue to fake, and the consequences of getting found out would far outweigh any short term political benefits.

 

[lily]

I believe the technical term for what happened in Pakistan is Murder. Assassination's only occur when a legitimate head of state or govt is topped. Finally can the US send attack helicopters into Nth Curl Curl if they dont like a dude. Why isn't international sovereignty and a countries borders not respected anymore. In the last year they have hit Syria, Libya and now Pakistan which is a nuclear state. In the old days it took an act of war to activate US forces. I guess it's because our govts are the US and Israeli's bitches and therefore we will have to turn around and bend over.

 

[barbarian]

Hang on, the US and Pakistan are close allies, I am sure they would have run it by the Pakis before going in.

Come into the real world Lily. You long for the time when international borders were respected. When was that? Certainly pre Cold War. Pre WWII as well. Probably before WWI actually.

Good times the 1800s.

 

[lily]

What is even possibly more disgusting is that they have said that the reason they knew of this compound was because of out sourcing intell. In their mind torture is fine because it acheives results. What happens when the next US pilot gets captured by the government of the USA for internal snooping? I hope a long drop.

 

[matty_k]

I believe the technical term for what happened in Pakistan is Murder. Assassination's only occur when a legitimate head of state or govt is topped.

Nope it is an assassination. From Wikipedia

An assassination is "to murder (a usually prominent person) by a sudden and/or secret attack, often for political reasons

 

[lily]

Nope it is an assassination. From Wikipedia

You didn't really come back with a quote from Wikipedia.

 

[matty_k]

You didn't really come back with a quote from Wikipedia.

Yes. And I checked the citation to that sentence before I posted it. There is seven of them. All leading to reputable dictionary websites. Wikipedia is a quick useful website and whilst I wouldn't use it as a reference in a paper/assignment in a conversation like this it is perfectly fine.