QLD Colts 2014

[Cat_A]

http://www.kings.uq.edu.au/_literature_67339/King's_College_Scholarships

@breakdown on the (publicly available) scholarship info, the scholarship I think you're referring to is to the UQ Rugby Academy. There are two available. Unlike the rest of the Kings scholarships on offer, the rugby-specific scholarships don't have an accommodation component. The Academy scholarship (given it doesn't state how it will be paid to the student) looks like it covers training costs etc but I can't see a cash component?

Obviously the potential rugby players looking to attend Kings can apply for the sporting scholarship to help reduce their fees, but athletes from all sports are eligible to apply for these scholarships too- cricket, rowing, athletics,swimming etc

I'm not sure how this would be considered a player payment?

 

[rugbywatch]

Shame to hear about Pat. Would of been a good addition. Was rehabbing his knee(?) through the GPS academy trainings. Not sure how long he is out for with that.
Where is Digger playing this year?

Digger is playing at the breakers after recovering the bond university scholarship

 

[Jets]

If a club provides a player with a job or an apprenticeship does that get looked at? I would say no but it's as valuable to the player as a scholarship, probably more so.

There are plenty of ways of securing a player without a direct payment. Good coaching and a great club culture don't hurt in this area.

 

[Breakdown]

http://www.kings.uq.edu.au/_literature_67339/King's_College_Scholarships

@breakdown on the (publicly available) scholarship info, the scholarship I think you're referring to is to the UQ Rugby Academy. There are two available. Unlike the rest of the Kings scholarships on offer, the rugby-specific scholarships don't have an accommodation component. The Academy scholarship (given it doesn't state how it will be paid to the student) looks like it covers training costs etc but I can't see a cash component?

Obviously the potential rugby players looking to attend Kings can apply for the sporting scholarship to help reduce their fees, but athletes from all sports are eligible to apply for these scholarships too- cricket, rowing, athletics,swimming etc

I'm not sure how this would be considered a player payment?

Kings certainly offer a number of accom scholarships based on rugby pedigree to elite QLD/ Aust players. Given the value of this, surely it must be considered player payment? If it were a car/ boat it would.

UQ Sport then have a limited number of scholarships (tuition fee's) that individuals may apply for based on sporting ability.

The UQ Rugby Academy scholarship (roughly $2k) is handed out to a broad number of 1st XV players to attract depth.

 

[I like to watch]

If a club provides a player with a job or an apprenticeship does that get looked at? I would say no but it's as valuable to the player as a scholarship, probably more so.

There are plenty of ways of securing a player without a direct payment. Good coaching and a great club culture don't hurt in this area.

Invariably, the clubs with the best facilities and best coaches have the best resources.
Despite the inevitable denials,clubs with resources are rarely outbid by poorer clubs.

 

[Cat_A]

Breakdown when you say a number it sounds like you mean a number in addition to those on the scholarship information. How many players over the last two years (arbitrary - you can go back further if need be) have been recipients?
And how is it paid? eg does the student get the money in hand, or does an amount come off fees? (the latter could better be considered a discount, rather than a scholarship?)

Of these Qld and or Aus schoolboy reps you are referring to, many of them would be picked up in to Academy/franchise College set ups. How would we differentiate the money and resources (coaching, training gear, physio etc) they receive from the ARU & QRU from that offered by Kings?

And apart from all of the above, Kings and UQ Rugby are totally separate entities legally, financially, and any other way that you might conceive. The UQ Rugby Club is also separate from the university legally, financially etc. So how would a scholarship offered by Kings be considered a player payment by the UQ Rugby club?



[As an aside, I'm struggling to see the benefit to Kings in not advertising the availability of this 'number of scholarships'. Surely their commercial focus would be on attracting more full-fee paying students to attend Kings, using the scholarship avenue as an enticer to have more men apply to the college? And if they are keen on using rugby as a vehicle to do so it makes little sense that the 2013 recipients were a touch football player and a tennis player.

Alternatively if my assumption is incorrect and their focus is indeed on attracting the schoolboy rugby talent you might argue that 11 Queensland (or Reds) reps and three Wallabies since 1913 signal a flawed selection process. ]

 

[thierry dusautoir]

Well word from the kennel is that numbers are looking positive for 2014. With a squad 20-25 already in training as a colts squad, i am also under the impression that there is a few colts in with the premier squad so that can be only positive for the boys.

While to some those numbers look low it is actually quite a positive number for the dogs as they also have a large contingent not returning to Brisbane until closer to the beginning of university, the other good part is that apparently all the lads seem pretty handy from what I have been told.

Hopefully these improvement in participation can lead to improvement on the field.

 

[unsub god]

You seem defensive Cat. It wouldn't be another thing that Uni are trying to hide ??

 

[Cat_A]

You seem defensive Cat. It wouldn't be another thing that Uni are trying to hide ??

Looking for more info. I think Breakdown has raised an interesting point re what will be included in the audit, but I'm trying to understand where s/he is coming from re the Kings scholarships. The above posts outline where I'm struggling.

Apologies if it sounds defensive - I don't know anything beyond the publicly available info re Kings stuff. I'm sure I could find out, but it'd take a lot more effort than google does.

 

[Thinker]

If a club provides a player with a job or an apprenticeship does that get looked at? I would say no but it's as valuable to the player as a scholarship, probably more so.

There are plenty of ways of securing a player without a direct payment. Good coaching and a great club culture don't hurt in this area.

This is spot on and something that has been going on for ever. I remember Tevita Kuridrani being signed, sealed and delivered to Souths for 2009 (when they recruited a really good group who were all under the radar and won the comp). After a few practice sessions people began to wonder where he was and the committee couldn't be bothered getting him an apprenticeship, despite the available connections. Uni could and he was gone.

 

[Red Heavy]

Kings certainly offer a number of accom scholarships based on rugby pedigree to elite QLD/ Aust players. Given the value of this, surely it must be considered player payment? If it were a car/ boat it would.

UQ Sport then have a limited number of scholarships (tuition fee's) that individuals may apply for based on sporting ability.

The UQ Rugby Academy scholarship (roughly $2k) is handed out to a broad number of 1st XV players to attract depth.

Kings give out the scholarship to bolster their rugby team and help them win the icc cup and a rugby game v Leo's that brings in a couple of 1000 spectators each year. (A game that can be quite the hindrance to uni as it's played on the Saturday of either the major semi or grand final every year.)
They don't give them out to help the UQ rugby team.


As for Uq sport scholarships the uni and UQ sport have the final say on who gets them not the rugby club.

As Cat pointed out the rugby club is a separate entity from UQ , kings and UQ sport.

 

[Red Heavy]

You seem defensive Cat. It wouldn't be another thing that Uni are trying to hide ??

The scholarship info is set out to reach as many rugby players as possible trying to hide them would defeat the purpose.

They can be found online, in pamphlets and are talked about at length at each of the school visits that UQ do. Visits that are targeted to all the rugby players in the schools they visit no matter the skill levels

 

[TheKing]

Kings give out the scholarship to bolster their rugby team and help them win the icc cup and a rugby game v Leo's that brings in a couple of 1000 spectators each year. (A game that can be quite the hindrance to uni as it's played on the Saturday of either the major semi or grand final every year.)
They don't give them out to help the UQ rugby team.

As Cat pointed out the rugby club is a separate entity from UQ , kings and UQ sport.

Even though there may be no official ties between King's and UQ as a club, the fact is that these elite players brought in by King's now live less than a 5 minute walk from UQ's excellent facilities, and freshmen are discouraged from owning a car by denying them parking - minimising the opportunity to travel to other clubs.

Sure there are ways around that, but living at King's makes it a hell of a lot more appealing to play footy in your own backyard, especially to the country kids who might not necessarily know their way around the club rugby scene in Brisbane. College living is directly targeted at out-of-city kids...

I'm not complaining though, I'm moving in to kings in less than a month


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[Red Heavy]

Even though there may be no official ties between King's and UQ as a club, the fact is that these elite players brought in by King's now live less than a 5 minute walk from UQ's excellent facilities, and freshmen are discouraged from owning a car by denying them parking - minimising the opportunity to travel to other clubs.

Sure there are ways around that, but living at King's makes it a hell of a lot more appealing to play footy in your own backyard, especially to the country kids who might not necessarily know their way around the club rugby scene in Brisbane. College living is directly targeted at out-of-city kids.

I'm not complaining though, I'm moving in to kings in less than a month


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UQ love the collage contingent they get (except for when they miss trainings and games for piss ups, college rugby or when they go home for the hols) and it is definitely advantageous to UQ. It's just part of the way things are at uni just like gps will have a large contingent of ashgrove boys, easts - villa/churchie and so on

My point is the kings scholarships are to help kings not UQ (although it inevitably does)

PS don't worry about car parks you will get one if you say you play footy, have a job ect, and no one from any college walks to training

 

[Cat_A]

I see the league comparison now; thanks for that. In terms of rugby union though, there are 8 Reds players that I can recall from twitter who are driving cars provided by sponsors. This isn't considered under the salary cap for the Reds. So in that regard there's a significant difference between the codes.

Likewise there are genuine attempts to get players involved with sponsors/"corporate partners", sometimes paid speaking or other appearances, and none of these are considered under the salary cap either.

I understand that you think I'm ignorant, but because I've never had a first hand involvement in recruitment I'm unwilling to post my assumptions as fact - I do rely on the information that is issued by the relevant organisations. I talk to a lot of players each year face to face about their reasons to select uni, but I can't recall a single instance where their reasons have anything to do with what I think you are talking about in "heavily incentivised". (I'm naive enough to think that if I want to know something about someone's motives or reasons the easiest way is to ask them directly)

So when I hear statements similar to yours I ask for more information because I thought you might have had access to information that I hadn't found in my research and conversations with the players involved and their families.

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[Breakdown]

I see the league comparison now; thanks for that. In terms of rugby union though, there are 8 Reds players that I can recall from twitter who are driving cars provided by sponsors. This isn't considered under the salary cap for the Reds. So in that regard there's a significant difference between the codes.

Likewise there are genuine attempts to get players involved with sponsors/"corporate partners", sometimes paid speaking or other appearances, and none of these are considered under the salary cap either.

I understand that you think I'm ignorant, but because I've never had a first hand involvement in recruitment I'm unwilling to post my assumptions as fact - I do rely on the information that is issued by the relevant organisations. I talk to a lot of players each year face to face about their reasons to select uni, but I can't recall a single instance where their reasons have anything to do with what I think you are talking about in "heavily incentivised". (I'm naive enough to think that if I want to know something about someone's motives or reasons the easiest way is to ask them directly)

So when I hear statements similar to yours I ask for more information because I thought you might have had access to information that I hadn't found in my research and conversations with the players involved and their families.

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Go & ask 2014 recruits Pat Morrey, Liam Jurd, Nathan Russell, Moses Sorevi, & Issac Todd is they were incentervised...

Also in heavy negotiations with Campbell Magnay to lure him from Brothers .

Doug Macmillian & Jamason Schultz were also incentervised before reneging & heading to the Breakers & Broncos respectively - both on incentervised offers.

 

[Red Heavy]

Go & ask 2014 recruits Pat Morrey, Liam Jurd, Nathan Russell, Moses Sorevi, & Issac Todd is they were incentervised.

Also in heavy negotiations with Campbell Magnay to lure him from Brothers .

Doug Macmillian & Jamason Schultz were also incentervised before reneging & heading to the Breakers & Broncos respectively - both on incentervised offers.

Unless things have changed in the last 2 years (which I doubt) the UQ sport scholarships don't come out until late February or March. So no player has been "incentervised" with that yet and I thought there was only 2 part college scholarship for kings rugby (as I mentioned before they are given for kings benefit not UQ - although they usually do benefit but not always)
The academy UQ have is a way they get to attract the players but from this forum I gather other clubs are now doing this to some extent.

I am no longer involved so I don't know these players personally or what has been offered to them but I can pretty much guarantee no incentives have been handed out other then the academy. All player at the club pay the same fees from prems down to colts 3. Other then the Halley Appleby scholarship no scholarship is given directly by the club although they do have a say in who they would like but it is open to everyone and up to UQ sport/kings ( historically at least 1 or 2 of the 6 - 8 sport scholarships go to older club players with impressive grades)

As for the league analogy it would be like players studying while playing and the broncos/ARL
paying for it or some part which I am pretty sure is what happens. (UQ aren't sponsors- we pay for the privilege of using the fields)

Lastly UQ choose to do everything above board and be very transparent. That's their choice they don't have to. If clubs want to give cash to players, pay for health funds, fuel what ever that is their choice and should be respected. And all the second guessing and hear say that goes on here doesn't help anyone.

 

[happyjack]

Unless things have changed in the last 2 years (which I doubt) the UQ sport scholarships don't come out until late February or March. So no player has been "incentervised" with that yet and I thought there was only 2 part college scholarship for kings rugby (as I mentioned before they are given for kings benefit not UQ - although they usually do benefit but not always)
The academy UQ have is a way they get to attract the players but from this forum I gather other clubs are now doing this to some extent.

I am no longer involved so I don't know these players personally or what has been offered to them but I can pretty much guarantee no incentives have been handed out other then the academy. All player at the club pay the same fees from prems down to colts 3. Other then the Halley Appleby scholarship no scholarship is given directly by the club although they do have a say in who they would like but it is open to everyone and up to UQ sport/kings ( historically at least 1 or 2 of the 6 - 8 sport scholarships go to older club players with impressive grades)

As for the league analogy it would be like players studying while playing and the broncos/ARL
paying for it or some part which I am pretty sure is what happens. (UQ aren't sponsors- we pay for the privilege of using the fields)

Lastly UQ choose to do everything above board and be very transparent. That's their choice they don't have to. If clubs want to give cash to players, pay for health funds, fuel what ever that is their choice and should be respected. And all the second guessing and hear say that goes on here doesn't help anyone.

I will start by saying that I think Uni is a great club and I have no problem with the scholarships.
I do have a problem with denying that there is a distinct advantage. That there are direct connections between some colleges and the Rugby club (Kings is a sponsor). That there is a strong connection with business units such as UQ Sport and the Centre for Performance.
That the club does "buy" players with the community of scholarships and additionally tops up players such as Sef Fagaase when they want to attract talent.
And while most of this is above board name one other club in Queensland involved in a CMC investigation into misappropriated government funds in recent years.
Having a strong UQ ensures Rugby is leveraging a significant community asset. We should be doing the same in so many other sectors.
It raises the bar for other clubs. Great - there is no need to deny it.

 

[Red Heavy]

All good points HJ.


Sorry if it came across that I was trying to deny their benefits. They are huge for the club and the recipients. My point was more along the lines that they are not as easy to get as the rugby club going along to all the young talent and saying here is a uni scholarship and your free ride into uni.

With kings and the other colleges as I said before it's a huge advantage for the club and we have very good relationships. But no player from any of them is told to play at UQ (other then the 2 on rugby scholarships) and plenty do go and play for other clubs. Just like The king will go play for brothers no doubt while living at kings.

With sef I am not at the club now so don't know the inner workings but I would find it hard to believe they decided to pay him if they didn't pay anyone else for the years I was involved. But you may know more at that then I.

With the cmc investigation the club was not found to be at fault in any way but I do think we were very naive at the time. The experience is probably why the club is so transparent now with all scholarships now.

 

[TheBigDog]

Also in heavy negotiations with Campbell Magnay to lure him from Brothers .

Apparently Magnay and Tuttle were training with the Gallopers this week. Drahm has managed to pull about 4-5 blokes from Nudgee who had been training with Brothers over to GPS in the last week.